From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Lisp's future Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2014 16:17:52 +0900 Message-ID: <878ukhn6n3.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <87d2ahm3nw.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <871tqneyvl.fsf@netris.org> <87zjd9swfj.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87oatnqpml.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <874mvdrj45.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20141009044917.GA19957@fencepost.gnu.org> <83lhopisfr.fsf@gnu.org> <87ppe1pldu.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <8761ft5wpo.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83k349b0vj.fsf@gnu.org> <83bnph96kh.fsf@gnu.org> <87ppdwo7ll.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <543BE7CB.9040801@cs.ucla.edu> <87egubopls.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87bnpfyjaf.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87a94zoo57.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83h9z77p7d.fsf@gnu.org> <8761fnnne9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <543D8186.9000101@cs.ucla.edu> <87mw8ym3no.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <543E0BFD.4020700@cs.ucla.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1413357520 1130 80.91.229.3 (15 Oct 2014 07:18:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2014 07:18:40 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Paul Eggert Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Oct 15 09:18:34 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XeIqv-0006td-JX for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 15 Oct 2014 09:18:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42350 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XeIqu-0000NL-Kf for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 15 Oct 2014 03:18:33 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:59185) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XeIqb-0000KQ-F4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Oct 2014 03:18:19 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XeIqV-0001LL-7Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Oct 2014 03:18:13 -0400 Original-Received: from shako.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.161]:39915) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XeIqO-0001Ie-9a; Wed, 15 Oct 2014 03:18:00 -0400 Original-Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by shako.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E43A1C39D3; Wed, 15 Oct 2014 16:17:52 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4FD2E1A2C6C; Wed, 15 Oct 2014 16:17:52 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: <543E0BFD.4020700@cs.ucla.edu> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta34) "kale" acf1c26e3019 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 130.158.97.161 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:175390 Archived-At: Paul Eggert writes: > It's perfectly fine for users to try "M-x grep -r" at home. It's > not going to hurt them. That's true for "hurt" == "must call 911". There are very few computer applications where bugs can result in 911 calls, though. That's an awfully low quality standard you have there. > It's a common idiom, and lots of people use it every day. Because they're monolingual English speakers, they can. Others cannot, unless they have an environment where there is a common coded character set used for all textual content. Even an American searching for all instances of the CENT SIGN would be subject to this bug. http://www.thecomicstrips.com/store/add.php?iid=83467 > Conversely, it appears that you did not read the file > admin/notes/unicode carefully; "It appears that you have not studied Unicode carefully", as there is nothing in that file that suggests anything but work is involved in a conversion that loses no character information, since the external coding system utf-8-emacs is available. Even that can be dispensed with, and pure Unicode used, with a little more work (use the PUA, that's what it is there for!) The metadata (language, for which original coded character set is a proxy) can be provided either with a markup language (eg, XML or even HTML) or using Plane 14 tags (but I wrote that already). > if you had, you would not be asserting so blithely that there is > "no barrier" to converting all Emacs source files to UTF-8. I stand corrected. No *technical* barrier. It does require nontrivial work: simply filtering through iconv is not enough. There's also a political barrier: I believe that characters are characters, and may be shared across traditional character set boundaries, and that the presentation layer should specify presentation. Dr. Handa prefers that presentation be encoded in the content. I have no stomach for that argument.