From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk (Phillip Lord) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Why does the tutorial talk about C-n/C-p etc? Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 16:12:17 +0000 Message-ID: <878u1r4om6.fsf@russet.org.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1457545436 1441 80.91.229.3 (9 Mar 2016 17:43:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 17:43:56 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Mar 09 18:43:47 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1adi9B-0001oO-Dt for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 18:43:45 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43077 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adi9A-0000c6-Tw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 12:43:44 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:37217) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adhyQ-00065d-Nu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 12:32:42 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adhyL-0006ml-Mr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 12:32:38 -0500 Original-Received: from cloud103.planethippo.com ([31.216.48.48]:45685) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1adhyL-0006m7-Ct for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 12:32:33 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=russet.org.uk; s=default; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID :Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:To:From; bh=nBl/1y+8Zvsez/dswX/PPVpshkrl8RAE6lyPV9vfYuA=; b=SLiNOZ8gXSu/Nc5nHNnQdcv1tI YeStHniEWhaBwABvYplX0TajcBUWBUFXdnU4n53w+6GQm/n/fLwzN6N+v/4VU4JY+yhvuOnQcTaHD Jy5N6k2J085lS0X00mL5vDT3Lxim2Iz4tShoJuejQKCCUxY0qSLZ2DKcm3R2vSsl2dEvxjceqAJ7+ ZIN6rxR6aIA8ZzmdigCmUhxhVAqhqZ9bb1ZCUyq0h4qy93ccoLWXGtkvrGlUuuIhkZ0JMH7fAoiFL g5nXQX9PtKMny+t83ar7aGuhQYs+yYDNmOqXG7BpU3AWgWIAK80zTjg/bNRnz9ZOuQUbThQPmCSxh 3hOBjuLw==; Original-Received: from janus-nat-128-240-225-60.ncl.ac.uk ([128.240.225.60]:59916 helo=russet.org.uk) by cloud103.planethippo.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1adhyK-003dqb-3r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Mar 2016 17:32:32 +0000 In-Reply-To: (Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen's message of "Wed, 09 Mar 2016 16:38:05 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (gnu/linux) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cloud103.planethippo.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - russet.org.uk X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: cloud103.planethippo.com: authenticated_id: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk X-Authenticated-Sender: cloud103.planethippo.com: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 31.216.48.48 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:201260 Archived-At: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen writes: > Or as somebody said on Reddit: > > https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/49of20/installed_emacs_started_tutorial_cn_cp_cf_cb_now/ > > Keyboards have arrow keys. We shouldn't be talking about C-n/C-p in the > tutorial. No, nor keys in the first place. I mean, people will just assume that you use the arrow keys to move the cursor without being asked. This week, I have sat behind people using Emacs for the first time. Most of them find the tutorial. Most of them get disheartened at something so complex that you have to learn special keys to move the cursor. When you don't. I started a new version of the tutorial a couple of years ago, but have got stalled. But every year I watch people struggle with this, and it encourages me to start again. If anyone would like to collaborate on this, I can push it somewhere -- perhaps an orphan branch on the main Emacs repo. Phil