From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Mark Oteiza Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Friendly discussion about (package-initialize) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 21:14:01 -0400 Message-ID: <878tiqkism.fsf@holos> References: <87fud4j9pw.fsf@holos> <874ltfw55v.fsf@holos> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1502414071 23148 195.159.176.226 (11 Aug 2017 01:14:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2017 01:14:31 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Aug 11 03:14:22 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dfyWk-00053Y-P8 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 03:14:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40908 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dfyWq-0005o6-LO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 21:14:20 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:41295) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dfyWe-0005mP-Im for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 21:14:10 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dfyWa-0004Tw-3x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 21:14:07 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-qk0-x234.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400d:c09::234]:36979) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dfyWZ-0004Tl-VA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 21:14:04 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-qk0-x234.google.com with SMTP id z18so13474251qka.4 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 18:14:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=udel-edu.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=tNiMFHWLFlYYC8htFcWi4kUJkNe+xM+Bdk4nb5xA6t4=; b=KQ2sPsWO11lr/IwmSj5KPLWyF9MK7LFn8L5+qvjlx8gvPZgV9rSevpRhKNh6/AWh4x 1gHKfLwoIojoP00wifskDEQBF1yvSO++GjZHwHzLOozF1zAtrho7EdQN2Om20h0sg0Ro HbI3OSejR14fQmBfPEp/Kkkx5bw0NINkbQ2zGUw13nfbj4dvEABaDlDjT9EwJmnXkFCD OYvt/EVgIi+e2ZD7d8V2+vwDgq9Uo4NC5upnnnPsLZCDPR3nqPCjgPNzzaewV1LNLuQ4 P7IXp7AVwbreh2AejvSg7uG641Aju4mV2xK2Jsg6/BZtP4W7Y7YruAAMq/0ZZqiwdu5T 0Nqg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=tNiMFHWLFlYYC8htFcWi4kUJkNe+xM+Bdk4nb5xA6t4=; b=Dy2at3m3523ogIlicDL4Wg02D1pUhl9pOXd9u+hoKDayLOoMwGZ/I/6nIMOwCtmBQz oMjTmpjIo7P9XYz6T7MV03V2Q4+raxcTNIGTdHVTAUm60hL1Q/yy7I8rAKs8OdobpB3P T5rNWPCBJgo05dpETn8PGTUFCMCp/qBc7JXSQPk5WhL8d/d9/9HGFTyiEhHESQ0qgC2y pZyMqvQglMwZg9oKsEE2tfoMq0yXgHsNNz2VKg11uW7jwI8zEHlF//trFhkDU7tWS0YC WafKEY2B7VQkGQUuMUv+PB/GTVIU0F7VvaBLMAi2MtOfA5IWVc2Z1WqhtllyqF5AVcr9 altg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5j4PW57oVJoOgk94ul3+TI971lhTFtFAqQOsfKN+kqwGA27HIGD ZIRIGCJWIN7/fjqs5LYFRg== X-Received: by 10.55.166.150 with SMTP id p144mr16609815qke.269.1502414043096; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 18:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from holos.localdomain (pool-173-64-88-95.bltmmd.fios.verizon.net. [173.64.88.95]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o13sm4768664qtb.45.2017.08.10.18.14.02 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Thu, 10 Aug 2017 18:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by holos.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C7CE268E5E; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 21:14:01 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Thu, 10 Aug 2017 17:29:00 -0400") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400d:c09::234 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:217406 Archived-At: Stefan Monnier writes: >>>> - subverts `package-load-list' settings >>> I don't know what this problem is. >> package-load-list controls which autoload files for installed packages >> get loaded. Setting it in init.el works until package.el clobbers >> the init file, putting package-initialize first. > > I see. > > I doubt this corner case affects many people, since I think users who mess > with package-load-list are likely to have a .emacs complex enough that > it already includes a call to package-initialize. > > In any case it's a one-time problem. It's a one-time problem _if_ the user figures out that package-initialize needs to go after it--so ensure-init-file still fails to solve the problem that there are cases where the user needs to understand package.el It's not a corner case. It's a documented use case of package.el. Sure, `package-load-list' is arguably less likely to be changed, but tons of people change `package-archives' to use 3rdp packages, and these users are at the core of the argument for this misfeature. Either variable being in the wrong position relative to package-initialize breaks things.