From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: hw Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: delete-selection-mode as default Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 22:09:01 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <878t3xckrm.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <83k1nxvm5j.fsf@gnu.org> <20180910181615.GA4829@ACM> <874lev3bq4.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20180912131602.GA5582@ACM> <87d0tihxzw.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20180913174640.GB4019@ACM> <8736udkuit.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20180914104833.GA4103@ACM> <83k1nojgia.fsf@gnu.org> <874leq799e.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <205df9be-2e5c-4cc4-a13a-7c80eb63bedc@default> <87in363zgq.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <87a7oh4mdm.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <831s9tidjc.fsf@gnu.org> <87r2hs15fv.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <83worjf1el.fsf@gnu.org> <874lemv07c.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <837ejif3hg.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1537389643 1206 195.159.176.226 (19 Sep 2018 20:40:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 20:40:43 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: spacibba@aol.com, joostkremers@fastmail.fm, npostavs@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, yurivkhan@gmail.com, acm@muc.de, drew.adams@oracle.com, phillip.lord@russet.org.uk To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 19 22:40:38 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g2jH4-0000DB-2h for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 22:40:38 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47214 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g2jJA-00027p-PL for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 16:42:48 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:47307) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g2jI9-00027T-Is for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 16:41:46 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g2jI8-00008W-Ex for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 16:41:45 -0400 Original-Received: from mo6-p01-ob.smtp.rzone.de ([2a01:238:20a:202:5301::6]:29398) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g2jI8-00006F-4u; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 16:41:44 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1537389702; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=BZsYzMd5r0SOgzJP6H2q0X31XBnJEP0iVDakE6EQrSE=; b=DBn5n8n4Ej6cCcYiA+TzlG1ziZs7KnM1rGL3nl36Mv+ozb8iIHgRuI1rE5fWw2BR51 CZ4xCdCQzPS5jxBoN84HVzOTFTKlTqB/gGihHEZFh+zKX5Zn1r3p+POwwn2svplDsmEo UvNROnzpGiDdnXz5mINAjxOl5AbAlDHbD7fz9HO28jtVcc80yWUCehffAS/WuvmlaiHf i5SCStFjq9TE5X/5pNdNS4x9mI1l1gIyu2qLBzc02Qnhp0lk0hqg5AJB1bpax4foi79a X9p4N5FUSj3EcWmd1bRQj+bj+Hm1bZ0pR6rKHMHVu/wXBfDbpFLdo6NxPqHeO8yY2pdd 1bGw== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+AVdIIwXjneEe9k=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Original-Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.1 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id 20bdb7u8JKfZKRf (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Wed, 19 Sep 2018 22:41:35 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1g2jHz-0000lW-3t; Wed, 19 Sep 2018 22:41:35 +0200 In-Reply-To: <837ejif3hg.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 19 Sep 2018 08:41:47 +0300") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2a01:238:20a:202:5301::6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229970 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: hw >> Cc: spacibba@aol.com, joostkremers@fastmail.fm, npostavs@gmail.com, >> emacs-devel@gnu.org, yurivkhan@gmail.com, acm@muc.de, >> drew.adams@oracle.com, phillip.lord@russet.org.uk >> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 01:45:59 +0200 >> >> >> >> Emacs has point and (the end of) the region (selection) always entangled >> >> >> with no way to separate them or to disable the region. That is what I >> >> >> dislike so much, and it causes all kinds of issues. >> >> > >> >> > It is also why it is so convenient to define the region without using >> >> > the mouse. With the current way of defining region, you just go to >> >> > the other end, and you are immediately ready to invoke commands that >> >> > operate on the region. How do you do that if point is not on one of >> >> > the edges of the region, except by dragging the mouse? >> >> >> >> Commands limited to the selection can work with the selection without a >> >> need to even have the selection displayed on screen. >> > >> > I don't see how this is relevant to the aspect of the Emacs region to >> > which I was referring. >> >> It refers to your idea that it would be inconvenient having to use a >> pointing device to do something with a selection. > > In that case, the issue is still there, because the selection had to > be created somehow, and that would be possible by mouse only. So the > Emacs way is more convenient in many use cases. You do not need to use the trackball when you want to make a selection in joe. Why would it be required in Emacs? >> You could even use a pointing device to select something. > > Of course. But it's a distraction to use a pointing device while > typing. right >> >> There is no going to "the other end" of a region before a >> >> selection has been made, and once one has been made, there is no need to >> >> do that in order to do something with the selection >> > >> > Emacs does that the other way around, but the result is no less >> > convenient and efficient. >> >> How do you go to the other end of a selection before it has been made, > > With cursor motion commands, of which Emacs has a lot, for the various > meaningful portions of text (word, sentence, paragraph, sexp, etc.). How can these meaningful portions of text be at the end of a selection that hasn't been made yet? >> and why would you? > > To define the region as appropriate for the command I want to invoke. So you go somewhere first and make a selection before you can go to either end of it.