From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jonas Bernoulli Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: On the adoption of transient.el Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2021 12:19:41 +0200 Message-ID: <878s1dv9oi.fsf@bernoul.li> References: <877di4on3d.fsf@posteo.net> <87im1oy6mw.fsf@posteo.net> <87y29hihea.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="31872"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Gabriel , Emacs developers , Yuri Khan To: Rudolf =?utf-8?Q?Adamkovi=C4=8D?= , "T.V Raman" , Philip Kaludercic Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Aug 07 12:22:32 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mCJTM-00083S-P5 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 07 Aug 2021 12:22:32 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38984 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mCJTL-0004wL-Ft for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 07 Aug 2021 06:22:31 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:35750) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mCJQl-0003lj-VG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Aug 2021 06:19:51 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.hostpark.net ([212.243.197.30]:47512) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mCJQj-00008l-Ek for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Aug 2021 06:19:51 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.hostpark.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6169C16454; Sat, 7 Aug 2021 12:19:44 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=bernoul.li; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:mime-version :message-id:date:date:references:in-reply-to:subject:subject :from:from:received:received; s=sel2011a; t=1628331582; bh=hEpWf 7MBcbEbZCecbOZNv7/+yYUjrU5g/d4y+A+U1nY=; b=iKoy3tayAFvw0gDQhBExQ 4JtlTbULLjHZCmAM+haIsNHWCrbL+lFtw0vBM69SthADowIf9kpY8lV3OdQLanN9 X83mjYfFbP5WM+hZN+3MLUoFZq51fvotJlNXaatLjhllNHo0Vz+EkN2yuK1UPXFf JH+g8ccEQL0g6RWIFODX5E= X-Virus-Scanned: by Hostpark/NetZone Mailprotection at hostpark.net Original-Received: from mail.hostpark.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail1.hostpark.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10224) with ESMTP id 7PpUdF1tCaim; Sat, 7 Aug 2021 12:19:42 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail.hostpark.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 24E0B163CB; Sat, 7 Aug 2021 12:19:42 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: none client-ip=212.243.197.30; envelope-from=jonas@bernoul.li; helo=mail.hostpark.net X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:272164 Archived-At: Rudolf Adamkovi=C4=8D writes: > the new transient UI renders=20 > the help system, such as the glorious C-h k, useless. This is https://github.com/magit/transient/issues/113. Basically, "I know and intend to do something about it. Help welcome." > Not being able to copy text or describe all keys is not what I expect > to see in the official parts of vanilla Emacs. "We cannot allow such heresy in the inner sanctum." So far I have brought back all the "lost features" or communicated my plans to do so. Occasionally I left out a feature, thinking it was not necessary. Oh, the hubris! For example I thought it would be acceptable to loose the ability to copy some text that is part of the UI (after all there is precedence in Emacs itself like the margin, header-line, mode-line, menu, and echo area (including partial key sequences)), but I was wrong, it means I have strayed from The Way of Emacs. I probably can bring back this feature as well. Just opened https://github.com/magit/transient/issues/126 for that. >>> What I understand transient and certain other packages do is=20 >>> basically override most keys, even those it doesn't use. This=20 >>> is more invasive than special-mode, that just doesn't bind=20 >>> self-insert-command to most keys. What I wonder is why this is=20 >>> done/why it might be necessary. You are of course not the only person who has reservations and who has expressed their discomfort. At various occasions this gave me the opportunity to explain the reasoning behind some of the design decisions. I just went through past issues to compile a list of things I have to cover in the FAQ (both "why?" and "how to restore?" questions). [Just opened https://github.com/magit/transient/issues/127 for that.] It will take time to finish that work, but meanwhile you could read some of the things I have written already. >From https://github.com/magit/transient/issues/38#issuecomment-489069727: "In summary. Transient popups are like incomplete key sequences. [Even when using plain old regular prefix keys] You can only invoke commands that are available given the current incomplete key sequence or abort. One could call that a modal interface. Transient differs from regular prefix keys in that it shows you the available suffixes in a buffer. That causes it to be perceived as more modal, but really it is exactly the same as for regular incomplete key sequences except for the visual feedback." Lengthier musings [keep in mind that some of it is outdated]: - https://github.com/magit/transient/issues/17#issuecomment-464243333 - https://github.com/magit/transient/issues/17#issuecomment-482815245 Also note that so far I have not pushed for Transient to actually be used in Emacs. That's because I want to address such concerns first. There are issue in the issue tracker about those. In addition to the once mentioned above, you are probably most interested in #114 and #127. Jonas