From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: On Contributing To Emacs Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 12:31:31 +1100 Message-ID: <878rw14k4n.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87k0fn8od1.fsf@gnus.org> <83y242ip0a.fsf@gnu.org> <87ilv6nzk5.fsf@yahoo.com> <87a6ginx55.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="13956"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.7.5; emacs 28.0.90 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Dec 31 02:52:26 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1n375m-0003Wh-RP for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 31 Dec 2021 02:52:26 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55338 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n375l-0003M0-Ar for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 30 Dec 2021 20:52:25 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49322) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n374r-0002de-Bu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 30 Dec 2021 20:51:29 -0500 Original-Received: from [2607:f8b0:4864:20::532] (port=42986 helo=mail-pg1-x532.google.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n374o-0007SF-D8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 30 Dec 2021 20:51:28 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pg1-x532.google.com with SMTP id g2so22691282pgo.9 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2021 17:51:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=references:user-agent:from:to:subject:date:in-reply-to:message-id :mime-version; bh=C3s8hIboBpKAbKm1XXMqEsrUVTF8OMbACg2QOQTqovY=; b=lfGeL/lHpeD6siiQQQ+TUTdLG9M9p+B5+BatCg0QK4+AQ6vKk6ZGYex4Q8AfPFCkuV gkd2t8v99vkA0I2bVHTWUBG4K5OhpwWzyCzNSQo/LFNmOayBrKmsAwxfh3H8eCUu/GOl w17W75l1W1IJmxzjoDQVZKAAtsY0C3OXgPvXxorN8HDM1GXAzTO9SwQb/r38W4DmdoAi y1sHZTnxaLzs6JnzYn9Ci0l4ZWuyfWAFczK4nr5lxqO+rb/uys6SsyLptl0mIKObQjPe bDgZETvCO6uihpv8dzg5vYFW0rAAWGYNmyND0LzG4MP5aGp4Q5P7QFc2neKDu6djQ/KB k25g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:subject:date :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version; bh=C3s8hIboBpKAbKm1XXMqEsrUVTF8OMbACg2QOQTqovY=; b=3GbPCQqv328svkhxNMi194aVhnbWq2qYepdwJ8mBaRX3hDaHWjtUg40Xi/7N8zjYm9 8IaVzw8w98kXldcxd2QoCtLh8N92drPLYYQJE2Nakxsgm8xu50GQJwW0w8fnAuZHeRhi f9XLydBBLWfkr6P6GXqMAM6z8mPVVGd4/EYyymNE1WoNAJRZsmZlkaLSk2Iff7vNqhBX DtrhHCzrsAT6xWIBCdCZCMMuxx003px+eHXxgzblZCfK38fTu7ZRnT0SrANxMfoBECtj 4HzuDu4WvSiru+VlyEwdVS/XEbsM8WHNYMLC/NFtCB8I2qtopEKdfCA+GQYbJrilQ7Jp +amA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531H5NBdGiCNmgbtmUJ/MSBI38gi8MmFa0F5c0Ras2sVQwzm2o3W sgb/ul7oOtmOfKi3Ec0MKIqbR1egg2I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJywOFY7tyBVUQUoKMFW9DCFAIUayCNiImj/FmJiAxpSgzx9ucPFORm/XHlZMyDzlCU8UaBctw== X-Received: by 2002:a65:4c81:: with SMTP id m1mr30065300pgt.427.1640915484279; Thu, 30 Dec 2021 17:51:24 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from dingbat ([124.149.107.194]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 24sm6287183pgv.60.2021.12.30.17.51.22 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 30 Dec 2021 17:51:23 -0800 (PST) In-reply-to: <87a6ginx55.fsf@yahoo.com> X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2607:f8b0:4864:20::532 (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::532; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pg1-x532.google.com X-Spam_score_int: 6 X-Spam_score: 0.6 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.6 / 5.0 requ) DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:283693 Archived-At: Po Lu writes: > Stefan Kangas writes: > >> But first, I think it is important to note that this is *not* clear-cut. >> Siddhesh Poyarekar made this point on the Glibc mailing list this >> summer: > > To the FSF it seems to be clear cut, because they are relying on the > advice of their lawyers to hold up in court. So I don't think we are > going to do much to change their minds. > >> Second, it is also important to note that lawyers have no formal >> expertise in how free software projects work or should best be >> managed. They have no expertise in assessing the significant >> drawbacks that this brings to a free software project, and how that >> should be weighed against the legal advantages they perceive (or not) >> with having a copyright assignment. > > How many drawbacks a free software project might get is moot, if it's > not (or can't be kept) legally free software. We should not let some > vague definition of "drawback" or "weight" interfere. Agree. In the same way that lawyers don't have formal experience in how free software projects work, developers don't have formal experience in how the legal system and courts work. It is illogical to try and argue that because lawyers don't understand software projects, we should ignore their advice on legal matters. We should ignore development/coding advice from lawyers and ignore legal advice from developers and coders! In fact, I would go so far as to say many developers make very poor lawyers. Writing code has a lot to do with conciseness, well defined logic and unambiguous 'laws'. The legal system and courts are very different. Much comes down to persuasive arguments from experienced lawyers, legal precedence, background and perceptions of decision makers (juries, judges, etc) and even current political and social 'norms' at the time as well as the ability of those involved to understand the complexities of the issues (which is often very limited, especially when it comes to fast moving areas of technology).