From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Akib Azmain Turja Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2022 18:26:42 +0600 Message-ID: <878rqa3rlp.fsf@disroot.org> References: <87leuca7v7.fsf@disroot.org> <87czfopmsd.fsf@gnu.org> <87h74ztshe.fsf@gmx.de> <871qw31ois.fsf@yahoo.com> <8735gj4ceo.fsf@gnu.org> <87ee038ipt.fsf@gmx.de> <87o7z61v59.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="30818"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie , Tim Cross Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Jun 06 14:40:58 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nyC2U-0007sX-87 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 06 Jun 2022 14:40:58 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50892 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyC2S-00039n-VA for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 06 Jun 2022 08:40:57 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47462) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyBpI-00061I-O7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Jun 2022 08:27:21 -0400 Original-Received: from knopi.disroot.org ([178.21.23.139]:34232) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyBp6-0001PG-BC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Jun 2022 08:27:20 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by disroot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ABD343720; Mon, 6 Jun 2022 14:27:06 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: SPAM Filter at disroot.org Original-Received: from knopi.disroot.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (disroot.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tmQgslsBTsD4; Mon, 6 Jun 2022 14:27:04 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=disroot.org; s=mail; t=1654518424; bh=YH+F88TyQJrY/YOv1qARu+1N5LSzDKbaRANOrOcGyJ4=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=azVYDw7feZr1XTZhn+dcjVCPIkl3X2qZkAzrhWlAb42O6RnWKFEdx/hQm8tCmE0NP S8kvkyYGTpirFZUTyibABz2DeJ8/AB/9xKsUcb3BrqkZMQuDaIiORGtxe5KBLscWVT Y0daOTaV+PwBt2SckvqNxf9ChpWI+bgHZxgHkW6pSxJVYwRoRTwTaxIua4UUZriB79 kIDEX0IDA+SwnDllxFWsMhDxlNkaPXrhddt+FRWez5RyW+q92LDNXH3VK/0RplPVas On12fa1zJ+ZXlbwX9Jhsw374jYCBzmUHL+RSFiwrAKw/GpiGs6bzCIhsvNu2vYNjY+ 66dodPfkyvc5w== In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=178.21.23.139; envelope-from=akib@disroot.org; helo=knopi.disroot.org X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:290791 Archived-At: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alan Mackenzie writes: > Hello, Tim. > > On Mon, Jun 06, 2022 at 10:19:38 +1000, Tim Cross wrote: > >> Michael Albinus writes: > > >> > I have no problem if there are structured README.org or README.md >> > files in parallel. But a README file should be plain text. > > I agree with this. > >> I've seen this mentioned multiple times in this thread and it doesn't >> make sense to me.=20 > >> Org files *are* plain text. This is one of (perhaps the biggest) selling >> points for org mode. They don't use any form of 'binary' data and can be >> read just fine in any text editor or just using cat/less/more whatever. > > We're reduced to arguing about the meaning of "plain text". The way I > see it, plain text means to be read as is by the user. In that sense, > the formats you mention below, xml, html, etc. are _not_ plain text - > they're designed for machine processing. A typical spam email in HTML > has the human readable pieces swamped by the machine readable pieces. I > think you're arguing that this isn't the case with org mode files, though > Philip Kaludercic pointed out an org file where this wasn't the case. > >> They may look a little *ugly*, especially with respect to URLs, but are >> still quite readable - a lot more readable than other plain text formats >> such as xml or html or json etc. > > And their performance in standard programs like grep, wc, etc. is that > much worse than plain text. > >> I also find arguments based around org being complex and difficult to >> learn to be somewhat overstated. > > There are 784 key bindings in org mode. How can you say that this isn't > complex and difficult to learn? > >> Org is powerful and very configurable, .... > > That contradicts your previous statement to some extent. Any program > which is very configurable _needs_ to be configured. > >> .... which means there can be a lot to learn if you want to leverage >> off all it has to offer. > > I don't want to do this. I want to avoid org mode being loaded into my > Emacs; it fouls up my key bindings to a significant extent. Particularly > if I just want to read a 50 line README. > >> However, like emacs, the basics are very simple and easy to learn.=20 > > I don't agree that the basics of Emacs are simple and easy to learn at > all. That's a strong reason why other editors have become popular. Why > should I have to spend time learning a super-complicated mode just to > read a 50 line README? > >> While I'm not arguing that org should be forced upon everyone .... > > If a README file is README.org, then org mode is forced upon anybody > wishing to read it in Emacs. This is why README files should be plain > text. > >> .... and I would agree we need to keep potential load time issues in >> mind, there seems to be lots in this thread over stating the issues and >> jumping to extremes. > > I think org mode is an extreme, with its 784 key bindings which seem to > violate written and unwritten conventions. > >> All that seems to really be under consideration is to enable rendering >> of *org files in help buffers using org font locking and perhaps >> enabling folding, which could be very beneficial for large readme files >> and would not matter for small ones. I also suspect this is something >> which could be disabled with a simple variable setting for those who >> really don't like it.=20 > > "It" could best be avoided by having plain text README files. > > --=20 > Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). > Just to add, many of those 784 keybindings of Org are DWIM or context-dependent, which makes it even harder to learn. =2D-=20 Akib Azmain Turja This message is signed by me with my GnuPG key. 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