From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Help sought understanding shorthands wrt modules/packages Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 14:23:17 +0000 Message-ID: <878rkh7ep6.fsf@gmail.com> References: <651bbe21-f179-730a-4f10-7dc6d27055ea@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="32162"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: Richard Stallman , Andrea Corallo , Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel To: Gerd =?utf-8?Q?M=C3=B6llmann?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Nov 11 15:23:00 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1otUvr-0008F6-Q7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2022 15:22:59 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1otUv5-00013h-PY; Fri, 11 Nov 2022 09:22:11 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1otUv4-0000xc-PX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2022 09:22:10 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-wm1-x335.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::335]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1otUv0-0006L4-Pt; Fri, 11 Nov 2022 09:22:08 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-wm1-x335.google.com with SMTP id fn7-20020a05600c688700b003b4fb113b86so3260588wmb.0; Fri, 11 Nov 2022 06:22:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=jYOQuykIuNZPr+Xeu8NAVUqOSPXf+dm32X1xT17Kf0s=; b=cV9Aq/ozEtvbdISW1J4xLHTT5PxpsVMLDF2WnYKMjiHVwNMS0UxiZjZP+DGP92KxnE fApAjvrfhDxhm65dcF5G1bqCnEDBryx9OXN7z9Bzkncww0hu22UX6r44wZQnQs6eq4pi 8Ac6+TKszbTA+sRcUi/+ySM4F1mcTwg5oxqkhWWxw4A/k1QYMphynp7pF0usblGkaBr2 DVAZwIYe/61/qCqFp7yytnXagGVD2mCLR51iOw6MivE7Hbht39O/mx2/IoXsKdlHIAT3 +iG/loHBKp17deQ0l8/EUGBpI4EyHmjogBqKyypTfXm/WBy3lKCdaB0ti+XkPSz9g1Tk WFXQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=jYOQuykIuNZPr+Xeu8NAVUqOSPXf+dm32X1xT17Kf0s=; b=vvH/S0tk8+oOPl09NK8aqsjk6dGxTM08LGelSW6tvHXJS8HW0fvwI5iqvy/bAvQxPH oHxD+8Cgou8rZDd2fM+KJsCVD7pKEUPS/Nlr2aqwxoOjP0p759F6wyF58y9QJjSR45UU BzZ1oRLs5ShDaxoojjghdiB2LUkDyqfzs6ZRMvoJXDG72a+S30UcfDJemK7mJU/2vp3+ 2Vpy8ScAHk58VtqmKcg8jWchm8yM7ZUINVxgfFgJJGC1USBfsEHgk9k/9MfeoM9HPzV9 cBYY9nZz8LBtrCHeZFFWSRX+RxJpC95rZFv4Yb+jPsBzUZ1A4HBFN1+t780vyi1BFc5+ Hmfg== X-Gm-Message-State: ANoB5pkwKHpoORFfqy62C8XrKHuJn2xUXYBRm25JF1dH9N7GDJcdlEJs AbGHXIcGDHJ3wDGwXvuK5wTBLDZh14yGnA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA0mqf6vCvfN8g2eXLEKE9Oi1Iiw6D9zGKaVzPH7c3ygaSft/m6YMBypPFZ4ZHQp9kxvIxWN4slmjA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:1c97:b0:3cf:b0ed:de9d with SMTP id k23-20020a05600c1c9700b003cfb0edde9dmr1350018wms.188.1668176523312; Fri, 11 Nov 2022 06:22:03 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from krug ([87.196.81.1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h5-20020a5d6e05000000b0022ccae2fa62sm2028056wrz.22.2022.11.11.06.22.01 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 11 Nov 2022 06:22:02 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: ("Gerd =?utf-8?Q?M=C3=B6llman?= =?utf-8?Q?n=22's?= message of "Fri, 11 Nov 2022 14:01:56 +0100") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::335; envelope-from=joaotavora@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x335.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:299570 Archived-At: Gerd M=C3=B6llmann writes: > Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora writes: > >> On Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 09:35 Gerd M=C3=B6llmann wrote: >> I don't agree. Before shorthands, a symbol had one name, after, it can >> have many. >> >> This is incorrect. You're confusing the text manifestation of a symbol >> in a Lisp form before it is read (as in CL:READ) with the symbol >> itself, which has only one name. This didn't and couldn't change with >> shorthands. > > Then let me try to express myself clearer. (I hoped to get away with > something more informal.) > > Before shorthands there was a 1:1 correspondence between the printed > representation of a symbol and the symbol you get when reading the > printed representation. Symbol-name returned a string that's the > printed representation. (And let's please not also consider escaping in > general, print-escape and print1 vs princ and such.) > > After shorthands, there is a printed representation in the code, which > when read gives you a symbol with a name that can be different from the > printed representation. In fact, many printed represenations exist, > theoretically mapping to the same symbol. But that's _exactly_ what a namespacing system does: it creates this indirection. Which by the way, also enables converse: the _same_ printed representation in two different contexts maping to different symbols. So you seem to be somehow lamenting that shorthands is a namespacing system! :-)=20 Anyway, I can't understand how the presence of shorthands can negatively impact CL packages. If co-existence is complicated (but is it?) it doesn't seem hard to make either shorthands or CL-packages a noop in in files that prefer one of the systems. For example, the reader can just throw away any shorthand info altogether as soon as it detects that CL:*CURRENT-PACKAGE* (or whatever equivalent you're envisioning) is not the default one. Or CL:IN-PACKAGE can just error out if it detects that read-symbol-shorthands is non-nil. But even if the read logic didn't do that, and considered the two systems at once, I'm still not sure there would be any ambiguity. Regardless, if/when CL packages ever make it to core (I hope they do, of course), I can't see why someone would want to continue to combine their use with shorthands. The convenience aspect of shorthands would be completely dwarfed by CL packages. Jo=C3=A3o