From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2023 02:52:07 +0100 Message-ID: <878r73g2m0.fsf@dataswamp.org> References: <87bkcbrgnr.fsf@posteo.net> <25924.21015.19614.951576@orion.rgrjr.com> <87bkc4jpja.fsf@dataswamp.org> <12da6bcb-1818-7fbe-12af-8d4607724332@gutov.dev> <87il6bt4z0.fsf@yahoo.com> <87y1f6s3eb.fsf@yahoo.com> <878r75sqby.fsf@yahoo.com> <878r74gnu9.fsf@dataswamp.org> <87sf5bom14.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="5162"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:UWHwPGo16ievOkzcnqk51hISI2s= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Nov 12 06:48:52 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r23L2-00016m-Bw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 06:48:52 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r23Kf-0004f9-Kt; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 00:48:29 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r1ze8-00087c-JE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 20:52:20 -0500 Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r1ze6-0001pb-RE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 11 Nov 2023 20:52:20 -0500 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r1ze3-0004zp-Rx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 12 Nov 2023 02:52:15 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Mail-Copies-To: never Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 12 Nov 2023 00:48:27 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312632 Archived-At: Po Lu wrote: >> The abstractions elevate Elisp to new levels, and from >> there, they make it easier for everyone else writing code >> not having to do on the level of very basic building >> blocks. Relying on wizards to juggle and combine basics >> like crazy to achieve wonders isn't the way computer >> technology has been moving forward, on the contrary that >> has been done by moving complexity into modules and >> providing neat interfaces so people only have to master the >> interfaces, not the details what happens below that to >> carry out the desired task. > > When such interfaces number greater than the finer details, > that proves so much more challenging than expressing these > details with the elementary operations which > constitute them. As we have seen here and in the stats I provided earlier in the thread how much cl-lib is used, it follows a lot of people have been able to put it into good use. It is not too complicated for anyone, and often on the contrary makes the code shorter and easier to read. If a bunch of guys take on the entire Emacs source and for that reason want a more simple Elisp, then that's their opinion based on their particular point of view. But cl-lib is still awesome and makes the code better, not worse. -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal