Fixed-pitch and variable-pitch faces

Fixed-pitch and variable-pitch faces

[Chong Yidong]

I've been trying to debug a problem that I've been seeing with
`fixed-pitch' and `variable-pitch' faces, which is that they aren't
anti-aliased, unlike the rest of the faces used by Emacs.  It seems that
these faces are defined with the "courier" and "helv" families, as
follows:

(defface fixed-pitch
  '((t :family "courier"))
  "The basic fixed-pitch face."
  :group 'basic-faces)

(defface variable-pitch
  '((t :family "helv"))
  "The basic variable-pitch face."
  :group 'basic-faces)

I think the font backend is matching these to non-fontconfig fonts.

It seems to me that the default Emacs fonts should attempt to define a
font family, now that we have the new font backend.  I propose to remove
the :family entries to these faces, but am not sure how to redefine
these faces.  In other words, how should `fixed-pitch' and
`variable-pitch' be distinguished from `default'?

Any thoughts?

Re: Fixed-pitch and variable-pitch faces

[Chong Yidong]

Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com> writes:

> It seems to me that the default Emacs fonts should attempt to define a
> font family, now that we have the new font backend.

I mean, that the default Emacs fonts should *not* attempt to define a
font family.

Re: Fixed-pitch and variable-pitch faces

[Stefan Monnier]

>   '((t :family "courier"))
[...]
>   '((t :family "helv"))
[..]
> I think the font backend is matching these to non-fontconfig fonts.

Yes, I see that here too.  The problem appears to be that "courier" and
"helvetica" are proprietary/trademarked fonts and/or font names (I
don't know exactly, just guessing), so most GNU/Linux distributions
don't come with them.
Instead, they have things like "arial" and "courier new".

The old-way to solve it is to add those mapping to
face-font-family-alternatives.  But as it turns out, this is not enough:
face-font-family-alternatives already maps "helv" to "arial" which I do
have anti-aliased, but I also happen to have the standard set of
adobe-helvetica bitmapped fonts distributed with Xorg and this is given
precedence in the list because, well, we asked for "helvetica" rather
than "arial".

I would actually expect fontconfig to be able to provide such mappings
as well (tho it appears not to do it), so maybe there's a way to let
fontconfig solve this problem.

As for solving it within Emacs, I'm not sure what we should do.
Maybe rather than do

  (dolist (names face-font-family-alternatives)
    (dolist (backend font-backends)
      (try-font)))

we should just do

  (dolist (backend font-backends)
    (dolist (names face-font-family-alternatives)
      (try-font)))


-- Stefan

Re: Fixed-pitch and variable-pitch faces

[David Hansen]

On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 14:56:34 -0400 Stefan Monnier wrote:

> Yes, I see that here too.  The problem appears to be that "courier" and
> "helvetica" are proprietary/trademarked fonts and/or font names (I
> don't know exactly, just guessing), so most GNU/Linux distributions
> don't come with them.
> Instead, they have things like "arial" and "courier new".

These are the M$ fonts (M$ once released them under a free beer license.
A lot of GNU/Linux distributions ship these old versions).

David

Re: Fixed-pitch and variable-pitch faces

[James Cloos]

>>>>> "Stefan" == Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

Stefan> I would actually expect fontconfig to be able to provide such
Stefan> mappings as well (tho it appears not to do it), so maybe there's
Stefan> a way to let fontconfig solve this problem.

Fontconfig allows that to be configured.  I'd expect mosts current dists
to activate those substitutions by default.

I know that info mode uses Arial Bold here for the headers, where it
used to use the Helvetica bitmaps before the font backend.

The Liberation fonts from RedHat, Bitstream Vera, DejaVu and the various
clones of Helvetica/Arial, Times/TimesNewRoman and Courier are also all
considered when the names Helvetica, Times or Courier are requested.

If you have a current fontconfig (at least 2.5.??) look in /etc/fonts
under the conf.d and conf.available dirs.  Look for things like:

30-metric-aliases.conf 30-urw-aliases.conf and ??-latin.conf.

Older versions of fontconfig put those same configs into fonts.conf
itself, rather than easily-configurable includes.

There may be some differences between versions, but unless the
aliases.conf files are missing from conf.d it should just work on the
fontconfig side of things.

The complication, of course, is when multiple font backends are in use.
I run with just xft.  If you have x,xft then it is probably right for
the Helvetica bitmap to win out.  If xft,x then that might be debatable:
whether 'tis better to give primary weight to the name or to the technology?

-JimC
-- 
James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com>         OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6

Re: Fixed-pitch and variable-pitch faces

[Kenichi Handa]

In article <m37id1c4it.fsf@lugabout.jhcloos.org>, James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com> writes:
[...]
> The complication, of course, is when multiple font backends are in use.
> I run with just xft.  If you have x,xft then it is probably right for
> the Helvetica bitmap to win out.  If xft,x then that might be debatable:
> whether 'tis better to give primary weight to the name or to the technology?

FYI, the current font-selection code doesn't pay attention
to the order of font backends.

---
Kenichi Handa
handa@ni.aist.go.jp

Re: Fixed-pitch and variable-pitch faces

[Chong Yidong]

Kenichi Handa <handa@m17n.org> writes:

> In article <m37id1c4it.fsf@lugabout.jhcloos.org>, James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com> writes:
> [...]
>> The complication, of course, is when multiple font backends are in use.
>> I run with just xft.  If you have x,xft then it is probably right for
>> the Helvetica bitmap to win out.  If xft,x then that might be debatable:
>> whether 'tis better to give primary weight to the name or to the technology?
>
> FYI, the current font-selection code doesn't pay attention
> to the order of font backends.

I guess we can worry about this problem after making the fontconfig
backend recognize the necessary mappings, which it currently does not.
(For example, (list-fonts (font-spec :family "courier")) returns only
x-backend fonts.)  Do you know how to do that?

If performing the mappings is non-trivial (e.g., if we have to manually
parse a file in /etc), maybe it's simpler to abolish the
`variable-pitch' and `fixed-pitch' faces.  I don't think they serve much
of a purpose anyway.

Re: Fixed-pitch and variable-pitch faces

[Kenichi Handa]

In article <877icz5rai.fsf@stupidchicken.com>, Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com> writes:

> Kenichi Handa <handa@m17n.org> writes:
> > In article <m37id1c4it.fsf@lugabout.jhcloos.org>, James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com> writes:
> > [...]
>>> The complication, of course, is when multiple font backends are in use.
>>> I run with just xft.  If you have x,xft then it is probably right for
>>> the Helvetica bitmap to win out.  If xft,x then that might be debatable:
>>> whether 'tis better to give primary weight to the name or to the technology?
> >
> > FYI, the current font-selection code doesn't pay attention
> > to the order of font backends.

> I guess we can worry about this problem after making the fontconfig
> backend recognize the necessary mappings, which it currently does not.
> (For example, (list-fonts (font-spec :family "courier")) returns only
> x-backend fonts.)  Do you know how to do that?

As far as I know, fontconfig's API FcFontMatch is very
difficult to use here.  It always returns a font that
fontconfig thinks best matching with the given pattern.  If
the family name of the returned font is different from the
requested one, there's no way to know whether the requested
family name is remapped (or selected as an alias) by some
config file or not.

So, Emacs currently uses FcFontList only (except for such
generic families; monospace, sans-serit, serif).

In your case, what is returned by this?
% fc-list courier

---
Kenichi Handa
handa@ni.aist.go.jp

Re: Fixed-pitch and variable-pitch faces

[Chong Yidong]

Kenichi Handa <handa@m17n.org> writes:

> As far as I know, fontconfig's API FcFontMatch is very
> difficult to use here.  It always returns a font that
> fontconfig thinks best matching with the given pattern.  If
> the family name of the returned font is different from the
> requested one, there's no way to know whether the requested
> family name is remapped (or selected as an alias) by some
> config file or not.
>
> So, Emacs currently uses FcFontList only (except for such
> generic families; monospace, sans-serit, serif).

I see.

What if Emacs always uses FcFontMatch if it's compiled with fontconfig
support?  IIUC, this means that fonts using the x font backend are never
selected, since fontconfig will always try to find a match.  But this
may be acceptable in practice.

The alternative is to keep things as they are now, and deprecate the use
of the `fixed-pitch' and `variable-pitch' faces within Emacs.  Stop
using them in the startup screen.  This is not really optimal, since the
underlying problem is unsolved.  In particular, there would be no way
for an Elisp package to say "use an anti-alised courier font" and have
it work reliably.

WDYT?

> In your case, what is returned by this?
> % fc-list courier

~ $ fc-list courier
~ $ 

This is on Ubuntu 8.04.

Re: Fixed-pitch and variable-pitch faces

[Miles Bader]

Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com> writes:
>> As far as I know, fontconfig's API FcFontMatch is very
>> difficult to use here.  It always returns a font that
>> fontconfig thinks best matching with the given pattern.  If
>> the family name of the returned font is different from the
>> requested one, there's no way to know whether the requested
>> family name is remapped (or selected as an alias) by some
>> config file or not.
>>
>> So, Emacs currently uses FcFontList only (except for such
>> generic families; monospace, sans-serit, serif).
>
> I see.
>
> What if Emacs always uses FcFontMatch if it's compiled with fontconfig
> support?  IIUC, this means that fonts using the x font backend are never
> selected, since fontconfig will always try to find a match.  But this
> may be acceptable in practice.

Is there a reason to think that Emacs does a better job than fontconfig
at finding a match?

The current (apparent) unpredictability of Emacs' font-selection can be
quite maddening...

-Miles

-- 
Success, n. The one unpardonable sin against one's fellows.

Re: Fixed-pitch and variable-pitch faces

[Kenichi Handa]

In article <buotzg32nn3.fsf@dhapc248.dev.necel.com>, Miles Bader <miles.bader@necel.com> writes:

> Is there a reason to think that Emacs does a better job than fontconfig
> at finding a match?

At least, the current Emacs can know that a font of a
specific family doesn't exist.  In addition, it seems that
fontconfig doesn't provide an API for modifing the priority
of font properties.

> The current (apparent) unpredictability of Emacs' font-selection can be
> quite maddening...

What unpredictability do you mean here?  Emacs simply
doesn't find a font that "fc-list" doesn't find.

---
Kenichi Handa
handa@ni.aist.go.jp

Re: Fixed-pitch and variable-pitch faces

[Miles Bader]

Kenichi Handa <handa@m17n.org> writes:
>> The current (apparent) unpredictability of Emacs' font-selection can be
>> quite maddening...
>
> What unpredictability do you mean here?  Emacs simply
> doesn't find a font that "fc-list" doesn't find.

For instance if I set the `default' face to have family "Aurulent Sans
Mono", Emacs chooses something completely different ("FreeMono" as it
happens).

If I select the same font, "Aurulent Sans Mono", at the same size,  in
e.g. gnome-terminal, it uses it.  gnome-terminal, AFAIK, uses fontconfig.

There seem to be quite a few fonts like this, which definitely exist and
work fine in other apps, but which I can't get Emacs to use.

-Miles

-- 
XML is like violence.  If it doesn't solve your problem, you're not
using enough of it.

Re: Fixed-pitch and variable-pitch faces

[Miles Bader]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 107 bytes --]

BTW, here's the aforementioned font, AurulentSansMono-Regular; I put it
in my ~/.fonts directory.

-Miles


[-- Attachment #2: AurulentSansMono-Regular.otf --]
[-- Type: application/octet-stream, Size: 36492 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 237 bytes --]


-- 
`...the Soviet Union was sliding in to an economic collapse so comprehensive
 that in the end its factories produced not goods but bads: finished products
 less valuable than the raw materials they were made from.'  [The Economist]

Re: Fixed-pitch and variable-pitch faces

[Kenichi Handa]

In article <buofxrn2kpr.fsf@dhapc248.dev.necel.com>, Miles Bader <miles.bader@necel.com> writes:

> BTW, here's the aforementioned font, AurulentSansMono-Regular; I put it
> in my ~/.fonts directory.
[...]
> [2 AurulentSansMono-Regular.otf <application/octet-stream (base64)>]

Ah, I see.  It has just a part of iso-8859-1 chars.  I've
just installed a fix to accept such a font.  Please try the
latest code.

---
Kenichi Handa
handa@ni.aist.go.jp

Re: Fixed-pitch and variable-pitch faces

[Miles Bader]

Kenichi Handa <handa@m17n.org> writes:
>> BTW, here's the aforementioned font, AurulentSansMono-Regular; I put it
>> in my ~/.fonts directory.
>
> Ah, I see.  It has just a part of iso-8859-1 chars.  I've
> just installed a fix to accept such a font.  Please try the
> latest code.

Hmm, that doesn't seem to help...

I updated to the current trunk, with your changes, and tried the
following to further isolate the environment emacs is running in:

   xrdb -remove
   cp -r ~/.fonts /tmp
   env - DISPLAY=$DISPLAY XAUTHORITY=$XAUTHORITY HOME=/tmp src/emacs -Q &

then if I start a shell in the new emacs:

   sh-3.2$ fc-list 'Aurulent Sans Mono' file family
   /tmp/.fonts/AurulentSansMono-Regular.otf: Aurulent Sans Mono

but, if I try to change the family of the `default' face to Aurulent
Sans Mono, instead, emacs uses:

   -xos4-Terminus-normal-normal-normal-*-16-*-*-*-c-*-iso8859-1

(???)

Here's the entire environment, as printed inside that emacs shell:

   sh-3.2$ printenv
   TERM=dumb
   EMACS=t
   TERMCAP=
   COLUMNS=80
   PWD=/usr/local/build/emacs/devo
   SHLVL=1
   HOME=/tmp
   DISPLAY=:0.0
   INSIDE_EMACS=23.0.60.10,comint
   XAUTHORITY=/tmp/.gdmTL1FCU
   _=/usr/bin/printenv

Thanks,

-Miles

-- 
Ich bin ein Virus. Mach' mit und kopiere mich in Deine .signature.

Re: Fixed-pitch and variable-pitch faces

[Kenichi Handa]

In article <buo4p832g9p.fsf@dhapc248.dev.necel.com>, Miles Bader <miles.bader@necel.com> writes:

> but, if I try to change the family of the `default' face to Aurulent
> Sans Mono, instead, emacs uses:

>    -xos4-Terminus-normal-normal-normal-*-16-*-*-*-c-*-iso8859-1

Hmmm, strange.  In my environment,
  ESC : (set-frame-font "Aurulent Sans Mono")
surely works.

Please try this:

(gdb) br ftfont_list
(gdb) run -fn 'Aurulent Sans Mono'
and Each time Emacs stops at ftfont_list,
(gdb) pp spec
(gdb) fin
(gdb) pr

---
Kenichi Handa
handa@ni.aist.go.jp

Re: Fixed-pitch and variable-pitch faces

[Miles Bader]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 831 bytes --]

Kenichi Handa <handa@m17n.org> writes:
>> but, if I try to change the family of the `default' face to Aurulent
>> Sans Mono, instead, emacs uses:
>
>>    -xos4-Terminus-normal-normal-normal-*-16-*-*-*-c-*-iso8859-1
>
> Hmmm, strange.  In my environment,
>   ESC : (set-frame-font "Aurulent Sans Mono")
> surely works.

Oddly _that_ works for me too, as does the "-fn" option.  It's
`customize-face' and `set-face-attribute' that don't seem to work.

The set-face-attribute form I tried to use was:

   (set-face-attribute 'default nil :family "Aurulent Sans Mono")

> Please try this:

Since the -fn option apparently works correctly, I tried your gdb recipe
with the above set-face-attribute form, setting the breakpoint just
before I evaluated that form in the *scratch* buffer.

I've attached the gdb session.

Thanks,

-Miles


[-- Attachment #2: gdb session --]
[-- Type: text/plain, Size: 10967 bytes --]

Current directory is /usr/local/build/emacs/devo/src/
GNU gdb 6.8-debian
Copyright (C) 2008 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <http://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>
This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it.
There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law.  Type "show copying"
and "show warranty" for details.
This GDB was configured as "i486-linux-gnu"...
SIGINT is used by the debugger.
Are you sure you want to change it? (y or n) [answered Y; input not from terminal]
DISPLAY = :0.0
TERM = dumb
Breakpoint 1 at 0x81183b6: file /usr/local/src/emacs/devo/src/emacs.c, line 427.
Breakpoint 2 at 0x8133019: file /usr/local/src/emacs/devo/src/sysdep.c, line 1322.
(gdb) unset environ
Delete all environment variables? (y or n) y
(gdb) set env HOME /tmp
(gdb) set env DISPLAY :0.0
(gdb) set env XAUTHORITY /tmp/.gdmTL1FCU
(gdb) set env PATH /usr/bin:/bin
(gdb) run
Starting program: /usr/local/build/emacs/devo/src/emacs 
[Thread debugging using libthread_db enabled]
[New Thread 0xb7128720 (LWP 8480)]  C-c C-z

Program received signal SIGTSTP, Stopped (user).
[Switching to Thread 0xb7128720 (LWP 8480)]
0xb7fca424 in __kernel_vsyscall ()
(gdb) break ftfont_list
Breakpoint 3 at 0x81d8019: file /usr/local/src/emacs/devo/src/ftfont.c, line 623.
(gdb) c
Continuing.

Breakpoint 3, ftfont_list (frame=147286812, spec=138058100) at /usr/local/src/emacs/devo/src/ftfont.c:623
(gdb) pp spec
#<font-spec xft xos4 terminus  iso8859-1 nil nil nil nil nil 110 nil nil>
(gdb) fin
Run till exit from #0  ftfont_list (frame=147286812, spec=138058100) at /usr/local/src/emacs/devo/src/ftfont.c:623
0x081d9fda in xftfont_list (frame=147286812, spec=138058100) at /usr/local/src/emacs/devo/src/xftfont.c:158
Value returned is $2 = 147779013
(gdb) pr
(#<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 normal oblique normal 12 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u12no_unicode.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 normal oblique normal 16 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u16no_unicode.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 normal normal normal 16 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u16n_iso-8859-1.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 bold normal normal 14 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u14b_unicode.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 bold normal normal 20 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u20b_iso-8859-1.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 bold normal normal 28 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u28b_iso-8859-1.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 bold normal normal 24 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u24b_unicode.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 bold normal normal 14 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u14b_iso-8859-1.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 bold normal normal 24 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u24b_iso-8859-1.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 bold normal normal 16 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u16b_unicode.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 normal normal normal 14 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u14n_unicode.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 normal normal normal 20 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u20n_iso-8859-1.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 bold oblique normal 24 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u24bo_unicode.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 bold oblique normal 20 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u20bo_unicode.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 normal normal normal 28 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u28n_iso-8859-1.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 normal normal normal 24 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u24n_unicode.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 normal oblique normal 28 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u28no_unicode.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 normal oblique normal 32 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u32no_unicode.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 normal normal normal 24 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u24n_iso-8859-1.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 normal normal normal 16 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u16n_unicode.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 bold normal normal 28 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u28b_unicode.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 normal normal normal 14 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u14n_iso-8859-1.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 bold normal normal 20 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u20b_unicode.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 bold normal normal 12 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u12b_unicode.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 normal normal normal 28 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u28n_unicode.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 bold normal normal 32 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u32b_unicode.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 normal normal normal 20 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u20n_unicode.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 normal oblique normal 20 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u20no_unicode.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 normal oblique normal 24 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u24no_unicode.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 normal oblique normal 14 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u14no_iso-8859-1.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 normal normal normal 12 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u12n_unicode.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 normal oblique normal 24 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u24no_iso-8859-1.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 normal normal normal 32 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u32n_unicode.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 normal oblique normal 16 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u16no_iso-8859-1.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 bold oblique normal 16 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u16bo_iso-8859-1.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 normal oblique normal 20 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u20no_iso-8859-1.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 normal oblique normal 28 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u28no_iso-8859-1.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 normal oblique normal 12 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u12no_iso-8859-1.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 bold oblique normal 14 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u14bo_iso-8859-1.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 bold oblique normal 24 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u24bo_iso-8859-1.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 normal oblique normal 32 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u32no_iso-8859-1.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 bold oblique normal 12 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u12bo_iso-8859-1.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 bold oblique normal 32 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u32bo_iso-8859-1.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 bold oblique normal 20 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u20bo_iso-8859-1.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 bold oblique normal 28 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u28bo_iso-8859-1.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 bold oblique normal 14 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u14bo_unicode.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 bold normal normal 12 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u12b_iso-8859-1.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 bold oblique normal 12 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u12bo_unicode.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 bold oblique normal 16 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u16bo_unicode.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 bold normal normal 32 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u32b_iso-8859-1.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 bold normal normal 16 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u16b_iso-8859-1.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 normal normal normal 32 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u32n_iso-8859-1.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 normal normal normal 12 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u12n_iso-8859-1.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 bold oblique normal 28 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u28bo_unicode.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 normal oblique normal 14 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u14no_unicode.pcf.gz" . 0))> #<font-entity freetype xos4 Terminus nil iso8859-1 bold oblique normal 32 nil 110 nil ((:font-entity "/usr/share/fonts/X11/misc/ter-u32bo_unicode.pcf.gz" . 0))>)
(gdb) c
Continuing.

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 180 bytes --]



-- 
Alliance, n. In international politics, the union of two thieves who have
their hands so deeply inserted in each other's pockets that they cannot
separately plunder a third.

Re: Fixed-pitch and variable-pitch faces

[Kenichi Handa]

In article <buo3anmn8hx.fsf@dhapc248.dev.necel.com>, Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> writes:

> > Hmmm, strange.  In my environment,
> >   ESC : (set-frame-font "Aurulent Sans Mono")
> > surely works.

> Oddly _that_ works for me too, as does the "-fn" option.  It's
> `customize-face' and `set-face-attribute' that don't seem to work.

> The set-face-attribute form I tried to use was:

>    (set-face-attribute 'default nil :family "Aurulent Sans Mono")

Ah, I see.  I have to add the code of "try iso8859-1 and, if
it fails, try ascii-0" to one more place.  I'll work on it
tomorrow.

---
Kenichi Handa
handa@ni.aist.go.jp

Re: Fixed-pitch and variable-pitch faces

[Miles Bader]

Kenichi Handa <handa@m17n.org> writes:
>>    (set-face-attribute 'default nil :family "Aurulent Sans Mono")
>
> Ah, I see.  I have to add the code of "try iso8859-1 and, if
> it fails, try ascii-0" to one more place.  I'll work on it
> tomorrow.

k, thanks.

-Miles

-- 
Is it true that nothing can be known?  If so how do we know this?  -Woody Allen

Re: Fixed-pitch and variable-pitch faces

[Kenichi Handa]

In article <buo4p832g9p.fsf@dhapc248.dev.necel.com>, Miles Bader <miles.bader@necel.com> writes:

> but, if I try to change the family of the `default' face to Aurulent
> Sans Mono, instead, emacs uses:

>    -xos4-Terminus-normal-normal-normal-*-16-*-*-*-c-*-iso8859-1

Hmmm, strange.  In my environment,
  ESC : (set-frame-font "Aurulent Sans Mono")
surely works.

Please try this:

(gdb) br ftfont_list
(gdb) run -fn 'Aurulent Sans Mono'
and Each time Emacs stops at ftfont_list,
(gdb) pp spec
(gdb) fin
(gdb) pr

---
Kenichi Handa
handa@ni.aist.go.jp

Re: Fixed-pitch and variable-pitch faces

[Kenichi Handa]

In article <buood6b2kzl.fsf@dhapc248.dev.necel.com>, Miles Bader <miles.bader@necel.com> writes:

> Kenichi Handa <handa@m17n.org> writes:
>>> The current (apparent) unpredictability of Emacs' font-selection can be
>>> quite maddening...
> >
> > What unpredictability do you mean here?  Emacs simply
> > doesn't find a font that "fc-list" doesn't find.

> For instance if I set the `default' face to have family "Aurulent Sans
> Mono", Emacs chooses something completely different ("FreeMono" as it
> happens).

> If I select the same font, "Aurulent Sans Mono", at the same size,  in
> e.g. gnome-terminal, it uses it.  gnome-terminal, AFAIK, uses fontconfig.

> There seem to be quite a few fonts like this, which definitely exist and
> work fine in other apps, but which I can't get Emacs to use.

Then, it's clearly a bug (of ftfont_list perhaps).  What is
shown by:
% fc-list 'Aurulent Sans Mono' family file

---
Kenichi Handa
handa@ni.aist.go.jp

Re: Fixed-pitch and variable-pitch faces

[Miles Bader]

Kenichi Handa <handa@m17n.org> writes:
>> If I select the same font, "Aurulent Sans Mono", at the same size,  in
>> e.g. gnome-terminal, it uses it.  gnome-terminal, AFAIK, uses fontconfig.
>
> Then, it's clearly a bug (of ftfont_list perhaps).  What is shown by:
> % fc-list 'Aurulent Sans Mono' family file

$ fc-list 'Aurulent Sans Mono' family file
/home/soft1/miles/.fonts/AurulentSansMono-Regular.otf: Aurulent Sans Mono

-miles
-- 
Optimist, n. A proponent of the doctrine that black is white.

Re: Fixed-pitch and variable-pitch faces

[Chong Yidong]

Kenichi Handa <handa@m17n.org> writes:

>> Is there a reason to think that Emacs does a better job than fontconfig
>> at finding a match?
>
> At least, the current Emacs can know that a font of a
> specific family doesn't exist.

Does this capability provide any benefit to the user?  What I don't yet
understand is what problems might arise if Emacs always displays a
best-match font, even if there isn't any good match for the :family
attribute supplied by the user.  As far as I can tell, there isn't any
downside.

Re: Fixed-pitch and variable-pitch faces

[Stefan Monnier]

>> Is there a reason to think that Emacs does a better job than fontconfig
>> at finding a match?

> At least, the current Emacs can know that a font of a
> specific family doesn't exist.  In addition, it seems that
> fontconfig doesn't provide an API for modifing the priority
> of font properties.

I think that Emacs would benefit from using more of other
people's code.  So if you use fontconfig's code as-is, maybe we won't
get the same flexibility as we currently enjoy (or from which we
suffer, as the case may be), but since AFAIK all other apps use
FcFontMatch, we can always say "report this bug or feature request to
the fontconfig people".  That will save us time.

After all, if fontconfig doesn't provide a specific feature, it's
probably because it's not an important one.

Hopefully, other sindowing systems offer similar functions to
FcFontMatch, so we might be able to throw away the whole
font-choice code.
Throwing away code is always the best part of programming.


        Stefan "Who's already having nightmares of «FcFontConfig can't
                find my beloved misc-fixed-semicondensed-13»"

Re: Fixed-pitch and variable-pitch faces

[David De La Harpe Golden]

Stefan Monnier wrote:

> 
>         Stefan "Who's already having nightmares of «FcFontConfig can't
>                 find my beloved misc-fixed-semicondensed-13»"
> 

Covered fairly recently - but anyway:
Have you enabled or disabled bitmap fonts in FontConfig? :-)

On debianoid systems, depends on whether you've got

/etc/fonts/conf.avail/70-no-bitmaps.conf
or
/etc/fonts/conf.avail/70-yes-bitmaps.conf

symlinked into
/etc/fonts/conf.d/

(After changing this, run fc-cache -fv )

If you have bitmaps enabled, then the X.org standard misc-fixed bitmap
font is typically in the default path for fontconfig.

This means you can use your beloved misc-fixed with *only the xft emacs
fontbackend enabled*:

emacs -Q --font "Fixed-10:foundry=Misc:style=SemiCondensed"

(Note that 10 is a point size not a pixel size in xft, it
probably comes out as the "13" you want)

While doing this can make xft *look* for all practical purposes like the
X backend (lack of antialiasing and all!), n.b. the xft backend font is
still client-side rather than the server-side x backend case.
i.e. the emacs binary has to be able to find the relevant .pcf file* in
the xft backend case, the x server has to be able to find the relevant
.pcf file (or an xfs serving it) in the x backend case.


* i.e. the misc-fixed bitmap font.

Re: Fixed-pitch and variable-pitch faces

[James Cloos]

>>>>> "David" == David De La Harpe Golden <david@harpegolden.net> writes:

David> emacs -Q --font "Fixed-10:foundry=Misc:style=SemiCondensed"

You can also try:

:; emacs -Q --font "Fixed:foundry=Misc:style=SemiCondensed:pixelsize=13"

-JimC
-- 
James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com>         OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6