Would you like to work on improving Emacs full time?

Would you like to work on improving Emacs full time?

[Tom]

When I started the crowdfunding thread I was assuming there were
developers reading this list who'd like to work on implementing Emacs
features full time if there was a way to fund it.

Of course, it is not necessary to work on Emacs full time to implement
new fetures, but there are complex features which apparently don't
happen in the current volunteer development model, or if they do
happen then it takes a very long time to implement them if one only
works on them in one's free time.

I guess it's more likely that freelancers would take up working on an
Emacs feature full time, because people with regular jobs are not
likely to give up their jobs, just to work on a feature for several
months. (But who knows?)

So the question is: are there people here who'd like to work on an
often requested feature full time if they could get the necessary
funding?

This the first question which needs to be answered, because if emacs
is only a hobby for its developers and everyone has his regular job
which he doesn't want to give up for working on emacs then the
crowdfunding model can't be applied to implement often requested, but
complex, difficult to implement features.

Of course, if the crowdfunding model proves to be successful then it
can even be a permanent job to work on emacs by starting crowdfundings
one after the other. Especially, if compelling features are
implemented with this model, because this could mean more users for
Emacs who'd otherwise use an other editor/IDE and more users would
mean an even bigger crowdfunding pool for implementing even more
compelling features, etc.

But first we have to have the ball rolling somehow. So if you work on
emacs (either on the core or on some packages) in your free time and
would be willing to work on a most wanted feature full time with
crowdfunding then please speak up, so we at least know there are
developers interested in this model.

We should know if there are interested developers at all in order to
judge if this model could work for Emacs. (Of course, there can be
interested developers who are not on this list, but I don't know how
they can be reached, that's why I brought up the subject here
where such developers are likely to be.)

Re: Would you like to work on improving Emacs full time?

[William Gardella]

Tom <adatgyujto@gmail.com> writes:

> We should know if there are interested developers at all in order to
> judge if this model could work for Emacs. (Of course, there can be
> interested developers who are not on this list, but I don't know how
> they can be reached, that's why I brought up the subject here
> where such developers are likely to be.)

The Emacs community is somewhat notoriously diffuse and difficult to
speak to at once via any medium, but I think that the EmacsWiki and the
#emacs channel on Freenode both reach a wider audience than this list,
which is seen (correctly or not) as a place by and for those who hack on
the official core of GNU Emacs.  When you post to this list, you're
mostly reaching people who already spend significant time maintaining
and developing key Emacs packages--and a few lurkers, like myself :) 

The best way to go about reaching the wider Emacs community might be to
create a "bounties" or "call for projects" page on the EmacsWiki and
publicize it through other media like the IRC channel and the identi.ca
group.

I think this is a great idea, by the way.  There are, no doubt, a lot of
freelance developers and admins out there who have elisp as part of
their skill set--often it's a factor that makes them more effective,
faster, better at their paid work--but who are seldom compensated
financially for this ability.

-- 
I use grml (http://grml.org/)

Re: Would you like to work on improving Emacs full time?

[Tom]

William Gardella <gardellawg <at> gmail.com> writes:

> The best way to go about reaching the wider Emacs community might be to
> create a "bounties" or "call for projects" page on the EmacsWiki and
> publicize it through other media like the IRC channel and the identi.ca
> group.
> 

Good idea. Then I ask everyone here to please post this call for
developers in other forums where you participate if you agree
with its goal, to see if there are interested developers in the
wider community.

I've never been on the IRC channel and I haven't even heard about
the identi.ca group until now and there can be other forums I
don't know about, so it's better if those people who regularly
frequent those forums spread the message there.

If you do then you may want to direct people to this Gmane thread
link which makes it easy to respond, so that the feedbacks are in
one place instead of spreading them all over the net in different
forums:

http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/149916


If you want to show them the original crowdfunding thread which
started this discussion then here's its link too:

http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/149738

Re: Would you like to work on improving Emacs full time?

[William Gardella]

Tom <adatgyujto@gmail.com> writes:

> William Gardella <gardellawg <at> gmail.com> writes:
>
>> The best way to go about reaching the wider Emacs community might be to
>> create a "bounties" or "call for projects" page on the EmacsWiki and
>> publicize it through other media like the IRC channel and the identi.ca
>> group.
>> 
>
> Good idea. Then I ask everyone here to please post this call for
> developers in other forums where you participate if you agree
> with its goal, to see if there are interested developers in the
> wider community.
>
> I've never been on the IRC channel and I haven't even heard about
> the identi.ca group until now and there can be other forums I
> don't know about, so it's better if those people who regularly
> frequent those forums spread the message there.
>
> If you do then you may want to direct people to this Gmane thread
> link which makes it easy to respond, so that the feedbacks are in
> one place instead of spreading them all over the net in different
> forums:
>
> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/149916
>
>
> If you want to show them the original crowdfunding thread which
> started this discussion then here's its link too:
>
> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/149738

Great idea.

While plotting this scheme and looking at the existing content on the
Wiki, I was reminded of http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/WishList and
http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CategoryWishList.  Some of the stuff here
is quite old and already tackled by Emacs, while some is now under
development thanks to the concurrency branch etc.  But sometime in the
next day or two I'll add a page somewhere in there soliciting sponsors
and developers for this crowdfunding scheme.

-- 
I use grml (http://grml.org/)

Re: Would you like to work on improving Emacs full time?

[Tom]

William Gardella <gardellawg <at> gmail.com> writes:

> 
> While plotting this scheme and looking at the existing content on the
> Wiki, I was reminded of http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/WishList and
> http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CategoryWishList.  Some of the stuff here
> is quite old and already tackled by Emacs, while some is now under
> development thanks to the concurrency branch etc.  But sometime in the
> next day or two I'll add a page somewhere in there soliciting sponsors
> and developers for this crowdfunding scheme.
> 

Having an updated wishlist would be very useful. Maybe outstanding wishes
which are good candidates for crowdfunding should be indicated somehow.

Good candidates are those features which are not likely to happen with
volunteer developers (too much time, tinkering is needed) or they
take a very long time to implement if one only works on them in
one's free time.

WikEmacs as Emacs as Crowdfund database

[Jambunathan K]

Assuming that the new crowdfund addons get distributed via GNU ELPA, I
earlier proposed use of debbugs.

Instead of using Emacswiki, I suggest that you can consider WikEmacs -
http://wikemacs.org/wiki/Main_Page.

I suggest:

1. A project page for each of the crowdfunded project.
2. A set of users who categorize themselves as a proposer,
   sponsor of a project.
3. We need a set of users who declare themselves as crowdfund
   workhorses or ELisp freelancers.

A sponsor will pledge his few $s to a table in page (1) which a (3) can
use to assess the viability.

All parties can communicate with each other and all the conversation can
be available for public.  The first success story can trigger other
success stories.

This thread has generated so much excitement.  I am yet to see a
concrete proposal for a crowdfunded project.  A proposal is more than
saying "This sucks. It shouldn't".

I still would like to see a writeup on your original proposal
irrespective of whether someone would run with it.  Remember a
crowdfund-workhorse may not know Java or python, so you need to add few
words that give the freelancer some starting point.

I suggest that you throw your pollens without even caring for whether
there would be wind or there will be fertile receptors for it.

Remember nothing succeeds like success.
-- 

Re: WikEmacs as Emacs as Crowdfund database

[Tom]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan <at> gmail.com> writes:


> Instead of using Emacswiki, I suggest that you can consider WikEmacs -
> http://wikemacs.org/wiki/Main_Page.
> 

The problem with WikEmacs that it's a very new project and it's
not yet clear how the initial enhusiasm of its editors will
last. EmacsWiki is already here for several years, so it's much
more likely to be kept working in the future.

> I suggest:
> 
> 1. A project page for each of the crowdfunded project.
> 2. A set of users who categorize themselves as a proposer,
>    sponsor of a project.
> 3. We need a set of users who declare themselves as crowdfund
>    workhorses or ELisp freelancers.
> 
> A sponsor will pledge his few $s to a table in page (1) which a (3) can
> use to assess the viability.


I'm not sure if it's actually a good idea to have actual pledges
there. It wouldn't make a good impression if one pledges money and
then when the actual crowdfunding starts he doesn't stand behind his
pledge. In case of Kickstarter and co. it's no problem, because there
you actually make the payment which goes to the pool and it is
refunded if the fundraising is unsuccessful.

Maybe it's better and simpler to have only a simple voting system
where people can add their +1 votes to features they like. Then
developers can skim the list of of features and see what features are
requested by lots of users. And when a developers chooses a feature to
implement then he starts the actual proposal on one of the fundraising
sites where he can set the amount which he needs to implement the
feature.

The advantage of this model is that the donators actually see who they
are donating to, and the developer has to convince users to donate him
money by writing a detailed feature proposal with a time plan and
describing the qualifications (previous projects, etc.) he has to
implement the feature.

Of course, this can also work if people are voting on features with
pledges instead of +1 votes, but then (due to the lack of actual
payment processing) there can be a discrepancy between the offered and
the actually funded amount which can discourage people (users and
developers) from taking part in such crowdfunding projects in the
future.


> I still would like to see a writeup on your original proposal
> irrespective of whether someone would run with it.  Remember a
> crowdfund-workhorse may not know Java or python, so you need to add few
> words that give the freelancer some starting point.
> 

The problem is I don't actually use Java, nor Eclipse. Java
support was only an example for a feature request which I see
very often on forums ("Emacs is nice, but Eclipse has better Java
support."). A proposal should be written by somebody who actually
uses Java and Eclipse day to day and knows what the most useful
features are what Eclipse provides for a developer. What's more:
Optimally better Java support for Emacs should be implemented by
somebody who actually uses Eclipse or some other tool with Java
daily out of necessity, because he'd be more motivated than
somebody who doesn't even know what day to day Java development
entails. That's what I meant when I said previously in this
thread that this development model could be about scratching the
developers own itch (and others') with crowdfunding.

Anyway, I have very little time lately, but I created a
crowdfuding page on EmacsWiki as a start and added a few Java
features as examples.

Everyone please add more features to this page which you'd like
to see implemented with crowdfunding and feel free to shape the
page if you have a better idea of how it could serve as a
collection of ideas for crowdfunding:

http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/IdeasForCrowdFunding

Re: Would you like to work on improving Emacs full time?

[Richard Stallman]

    When I started the crowdfunding thread I was assuming there were
    developers reading this list who'd like to work on implementing Emacs
    features full time if there was a way to fund it.

Crowdfunding based on paying for specific features does not require
that the same few people spend full time writing one feature after
another, full time.  If there are 10 people, each of whom writes a
feature every 6 months, that would add up to substantial contribution.

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call

Re: Would you like to work on improving Emacs full time?

[Tom]

Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org> writes:

> 
> Crowdfunding based on paying for specific features does not require
> that the same few people spend full time writing one feature after
> another, full time.  If there are 10 people, each of whom writes a
> feature every 6 months, that would add up to substantial contribution.
>

Yes, they don't have to be the same people.

I guess most developers who will work in this model will
implement some feature which he himself also needs (so it will be
scratching his own and others' itch with crowdfunding) in several
months and then goes back to his regular job.

Re: Would you like to work on improving Emacs full time?

[Julien Danjou]

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On Sat, Apr 21 2012, Tom wrote:

[…]

> But first we have to have the ball rolling somehow. So if you work on
> emacs (either on the core or on some packages) in your free time and
> would be willing to work on a most wanted feature full time with
> crowdfunding then please speak up, so we at least know there are
> developers interested in this model.

To the possible extent, I would.

-- 
           Julien

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Re: Would you like to work on improving Emacs full time?

[Thorsten]

Julien Danjou <julien@danjou.info> writes:

> On Sat, Apr 21 2012, Tom wrote:
>
> […]
>
>> But first we have to have the ball rolling somehow. So if you work on
>> emacs (either on the core or on some packages) in your free time and
>> would be willing to work on a most wanted feature full time with
>> crowdfunding then please speak up, so we at least know there are
>> developers interested in this model.
>
> To the possible extent, I would.

With a bit of luck I might spend this summer working full-time on a GNU
Emacs Org-mode project during the Google Summer of Code. Maybe after
this project my Elisp skills will suffice to participate in such
crowdfunding project. 

I would definitely be interested in this model (and will probably be
available again in September 2012).

-- 
cheers,
Thorsten

Re: Would you like to work on improving Emacs full time?

[Tom]

Julien Danjou <julien <at> danjou.info> writes:

> 
> On Sat, Apr 21 2012, Tom wrote:
> 
> […]
> 
> > But first we have to have the ball rolling somehow. So if you work on
> > emacs (either on the core or on some packages) in your free time and
> > would be willing to work on a most wanted feature full time with
> > crowdfunding then please speak up, so we at least know there are
> > developers interested in this model.
> 
> To the possible extent, I would.
> 

Do you have a specific feature in mind or you would work on any
popularly requested feature which the community considers
worthwhile to implement?

Re: Would you like to work on improving Emacs full time?

[Julien Danjou]

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On Mon, Apr 23 2012, Tom wrote:

> Do you have a specific feature in mind or you would work on any
> popularly requested feature which the community considers
> worthwhile to implement?

One thing on my mind was improving image-mode, because at some point I
wanted to use Emacs as an image viewer and it was not really
comfortable. I started, but I never had enough time to enhance the
actual mode enough so I can merge something.

However, that's just an idea I had at some point and that is still in my
TODO list.

On the other hand, I'd be happy to work on any popularly requested
feature. As long as it's in my area of understanding and abilities, of
course. :)

-- 
           Julien

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Re: Would you like to work on improving Emacs full time?

[Bastien]

Tom <adatgyujto@gmail.com> writes:

> So if you work on
> emacs (either on the core or on some packages) in your free time and
> would be willing to work on a most wanted feature full time with
> crowdfunding then please speak up, so we at least know there are
> developers interested in this model.

FWIW I would be interested.

Thanks for keeping this open brainstorming up and moving forward!

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Would you like to work on improving Emacs full time?

[Tom]

Bastien <bzg <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> FWIW I would be interested.
> 

Then the same question goes for you:

Do you have a specific feature in mind or you would pick some
popular feature from a list of popular requests?

It is the developer's task to choose a project which interests
him and which he's capable to do. So as a developer what do
you (and others who expressed interest) need to make this
decision? I'm asking this to clarify what is needed to push the
cart forward.

Do you need this list of features to make it easier to choose
one? William promised in this thread to update the EmacsWiki
wishlist soon. Would it be enough for you to pick a feature
to implement?


> Thanks for keeping this open brainstorming up and moving forward!
> 

I try to keep the ball rolling. Hopefully, it will roll to some nice
place. :)

Re: Would you like to work on improving Emacs full time?

[Bastien]

Tom <adatgyujto@gmail.com> writes:

> Do you have a specific feature in mind or you would pick some
> popular feature from a list of popular requests?

I would create a features wishlist for Org-mode, which I currently
maintain, then pick up the most requested feature that I'm able to
write.

> It is the developer's task to choose a project which interests
> him and which he's capable to do. So as a developer what do
> you (and others who expressed interest) need to make this
> decision? I'm asking this to clarify what is needed to push the
> cart forward.
>
> Do you need this list of features to make it easier to choose
> one? William promised in this thread to update the EmacsWiki
> wishlist soon. Would it be enough for you to pick a feature
> to implement?

See above: I would first create a specific feature for Org. 
I doubt this will be enough for a kickstarter-like model, but
I may find financial support in other ways.

The reason why I'm interested in this discussion is that spending 
5-10 hours a week contributing to Org/Emacs can be a hobby while
you have a steady job.  Once you are a freelance, "free" time does 
not mean the same, because "free" time is always time you *could* 
spend on doing something paid.

I'll be a freelance starting from June.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Would you like to work on improving Emacs full time?

[Jeremiah Dodds]

Tom <adatgyujto@gmail.com> writes:

> So the question is: are there people here who'd like to work on an
> often requested feature full time if they could get the necessary
> funding?

I don't have much experience working on emacs, I've only fiddled around
with the source a little bit, but a large part of the reason for that is
because I've been having to spend most of my time doing rather boring
web-dev for money.

I would gladly devote a large majority of my time to improving emacs if
I knew I'd be able to keep a roof over my head and food in my mouth in
the process.