From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: On being web-friendly and why info must die Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 12:18:42 +0100 Organization: Organization?!? Message-ID: <877fy5owkt.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <20141205123549.GA29331@thyrsus.com> <87mw72lyzs.fsf@earlgrey.lan> <20141205190925.GA5067@thyrsus.com> <20141206061019.GC14890@thyrsus.com> <83ppbx1aag.fsf@gnu.org> <20141206110310.GE19750@thyrsus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1417864759 971 80.91.229.3 (6 Dec 2014 11:19:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 11:19:19 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Dec 06 12:19:09 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XxDOH-0001eE-EV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 06 Dec 2014 12:19:09 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54087 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XxDOG-0003T7-W1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 06 Dec 2014 06:19:08 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48553) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XxDO8-0003T0-Qf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 06 Dec 2014 06:19:06 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XxDO3-0006zX-B2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 06 Dec 2014 06:19:00 -0500 Original-Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:34487) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XxDO3-0006z0-3m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 06 Dec 2014 06:18:55 -0500 Original-Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XxDO2-0001Wi-5i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 06 Dec 2014 12:18:54 +0100 Original-Received: from x2f51fab.dyn.telefonica.de ([2.245.31.171]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 06 Dec 2014 12:18:54 +0100 Original-Received: from dak by x2f51fab.dyn.telefonica.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 06 Dec 2014 12:18:54 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 57 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: x2f51fab.dyn.telefonica.de X-Face: 2FEFf>]>q>2iw=B6, xrUubRI>pR&Ml9=ao@P@i)L:\urd*t9M~y1^:+Y]'C0~{mAl`oQuAl \!3KEIp?*w`|bL5qr,H)LFO6Q=qx~iH4DN; i"; /yuIsqbLLCh/!U#X[S~(5eZ41to5f%E@'ELIi$t^ Vc\LWP@J5p^rst0+('>Er0=^1{]M9!p?&:\z]|;&=NP3AhB!B_bi^]Pfkw User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:4i9C5NGjTtIjDSlvExJw0z9tVMc= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 80.91.229.3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:179153 Archived-At: "Eric S. Raymond" writes: > Eli Zaretskii : >> > > Until there is a documentation viewer available in Elisp that is almost >> > > as good as Info-mode while being prettier, >> > >> > Does a web browser not qualify? >> >> Not to me, not as progress from the current situation. >> >> > If not, why not? >> >> Because copy/pasting docs from a separate program while working on >> something in Emacs is an annoyance > > Granted. But eww is part of the background conditions now. Emacs > itself is a browser, and will become a better one. > >> And also because the index-searching commands, without which you are >> lost in a large manual, don't exist in the Web browsers out there. > > This is not at *all* hard to solve. I have written HTML generators > that produce index links myself in different contexts. Good grief. Texinfo _does_ produce indexes in its HTML output. But the browsers offer no reasonable navigation for them as they are just hyperlinked pages like the rest. > Generating that kind of link structure from any modern markup is > almost trivial. If you don't understand this it is unsurprising that > you are opposed. But it is quite surprising that you don't > understand. If you could stop presuming the sole reason somebody could disagree with you is because he is an idiot, it would make it easier to lead something akin to a civilized discussion. Getting the information condensed into some form of HTML is not the problem. The problem is actually having it accessible in the browser in a manner catered to the actual use rather than like every other HTML. It is not so much the Info format competing with HTML (though instantaneous rendering and response do have their perks). It is the Emacs Info reader competing with generic HTML browsers. That's the measuring yard, not the standalone Info reader. >> In sum, switching to a Web browser as the means to read documentation >> is a regression. > > Except to pretty much the entire universe of new developers we need to > recruit. The hurdle there is Elisp, not Texinfo. -- David Kastrup