From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Oleh Krehel Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [Emacs-diffs] master 9ffb6ce 5/5: Quoting fixes in lisp/international and lisp/leim Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2015 12:45:06 +0200 Message-ID: <877foas9jh.fsf@gmail.com> References: <20150831061236.27796.57762@vcs.savannah.gnu.org> <55E3F434.2060507@yandex.ru> <55E496DC.1030608@cs.ucla.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1441104295 30515 80.91.229.3 (1 Sep 2015 10:44:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 10:44:55 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Paul Eggert , Dmitry Gutov , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 01 12:44:45 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZWj3U-0000FY-TF for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 12:44:45 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52447 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZWj3U-0000IC-GY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 06:44:44 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40814) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZWj3Q-0000Hk-2n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 06:44:41 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZWj3M-0001fe-PY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 06:44:39 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wi0-x22d.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c05::22d]:34456) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZWj3M-0001e8-JE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 06:44:36 -0400 Original-Received: by wicjd9 with SMTP id jd9so28295651wic.1 for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 03:44:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vj86sv+ZUJzaVBXTnTnYLa4zC09IgMtR8KQi1/IF3ZM=; b=gT0tZNloUSNQEs3hvg7Es9bonWFtwIVjbk9+BRYlX/VfdVEU6fjJHCDTlprA3hCPqb qWfxeOvRfm1ZraZmoeFj8hk5BxGJjDPmmNHS07sqKJBJ+wwmcm2Sp4LwsvnWU1jtb4Jd Rh4awPwCEWqxvcQbRD9u2WVr/UCIKL0uXcr04Cc53EXD2ai4jwh8VSP+Vu2ciu31liRA /HNt5/lwdnlXSTzJ7y33bdXJlFo2V8uD/ifAW8AgYtjgG02Bh7n///oyK5Kt853g2/b8 xRxEHolSpIy0IWyeJQkunm3Qzq689+GNLzRG/0SfNXgbjjIh9PvJw+r/nwqtga4UEBGK KRSA== X-Received: by 10.180.218.99 with SMTP id pf3mr2436835wic.80.1441104275299; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 03:44:35 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from firefly (dyn069045.nbw.tue.nl. [131.155.69.45]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a19sm26517044wjr.27.2015.09.01.03.44.34 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=AES128-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 01 Sep 2015 03:44:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Mon, 31 Aug 2015 23:40:29 -0400") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22d X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:189375 Archived-At: Stefan Monnier writes: >>> I'm not even sure if "don=E2=80=99t" is typographically >>> better than "don't" (after all, last I checked the little thingy is >>> supposed to be an "apostrophe", not a "right single quotation mark"). >> Typographically it's not an issue: in non-typewriter English, U+2019 RIG= HT >> SINGLE QUOTATION MARK is supposed to be use for elision (=E2=80=9Cdon=E2= =80=99t=E2=80=9D), for >> closing a single quotation (=E2=80=9CHe said =E2=80=98no=E2=80=99.=E2=80= =9D) and for grammar (=E2=80=9CThose are my >> sisters=E2=80=99 books.=E2=80=9D). It's the same character for all thre= e. See, for >> example, . > > I think in the context of Emacs, if we have to choose between ' and =E2= =80=99 > and there's not a strong reason to prefer the non-ASCII char, we > should stick with the ASCII char. > > The only thing we're trying to fix here is the ugly `...' quoting. > I don't see any need to change anything else at this stage. I'd like to present a data point: there are 32725 occurrences of "don't" in the Emacs git repository, and only 10 occurrences of "don=E2=80=99t". And to restate my opinion on the matter, since I haven't participated in this discussion for a few months: Elisp code should be treated as markup. Markup should be easy to view and enter: and since Emacs' main language is English, the markup should be easy to enter in the most common English keyboard layout and be easy to read in the most common English locale. If it were up to me, I'd revert everything until there wasn't a single curly in the code part. Having markup that translates to curlies is absolutely fine with me. But even that should be configurable, and I would configure my Emacs to go without the option because I hate to see curlies. Also one of the most popular markup formats - Markdown (http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/syntax) uses plain ASCII for markup. One of the reasons for the change in Emacs was something about texinfo having curlies. Well, Markdown is a competing format that is way more popular than texinfo. And while a Markdown renderer can translate "don't" into "don=E2=80=99t", and I'm pretty sure it does so by default, the markup itself still remains ASCII and is easy to enter, modify and view. It's just a matter of convenience, which is one of Emacs' strengths: - Entering "'" with a single key on my pinky is convenient. - Entering "=E2=80=99" with "C-x 8" isn't. - Grepping for "don't.*foo" is convenient. - Grepping for "\(don=E2=80=99t\)\|\(don't\).*foo" isn't convenient. Oleh