From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk (Phillip Lord) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2018 17:20:30 +0200 Message-ID: <877ek19tmp.fsf@russet.org.uk> References: <87zhxcbmtr.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83in409lub.fsf@gnu.org> <871sanb71j.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83y3cu7t9j.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8t2ki9.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <20180827015422.lcq44zvsjffeau4j@Ergus> <83a7p76f5e.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8p9o6y.fsf@russet.org.uk> <83pnxx1foj.fsf@gnu.org> <20180902175217.qmc6oqj74gcmzwcs@Ergus> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536074418 3128 195.159.176.226 (4 Sep 2018 15:20:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 15:20:18 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cc: hw@adminart.net, Eli Zaretskii , Richard Stallman , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Ergus Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 04 17:20:14 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fxD7m-0000ey-8A for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 17:20:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51384 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxD9s-0008Pw-Ea for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 11:22:24 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:43907) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxD8X-0008MO-7G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 11:21:03 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxD8S-0004JD-DL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 11:21:01 -0400 Original-Received: from cloud103.planethippo.com ([78.129.138.110]:40947) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxD8D-0004BG-HF; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 11:20:41 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=russet.org.uk; s=default; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=6F9kgJDqNdQT+KktCbqNeY6aCRiirRHX3sAA9bIuGXE=; b=J0XJNgA36PLuqt2fkHj3Yztwk FGoydKPJzsvlFsX1YIt/1au6WBl8xO+i83aUJ0LgKEHa421kYMTe4bBetGuP8k/brEmS8MbusJqqA INrl+9xjhYEcTftGi/uGKrjqI4LCXIkrNrfZfzhKUpMwX6MgWFujgRrzjahq4Q39xvCkSREhBTWSb qhp3FKIBmUMiNBC0hiEhzpgPOs5XcndNcjadbgWQp6Jorhq9fTBu1AoUeIU7VThyaDN9mdYVXb8LJ YcSSgy9lnoDhcPHrhJUp35PhexkQHu97TVwt7z+tB22TuWYgljQapJaa5WHsw/VhmindhdrqIPGsz I9TB7wrYQ==; Original-Received: from [213.244.170.154] (port=48620 helo=russet.org.uk) by cloud103.planethippo.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1fxD89-0082jJ-TN; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 15:20:37 +0000 In-Reply-To: <20180902175217.qmc6oqj74gcmzwcs@Ergus> (Ergus's message of "Sun, 2 Sep 2018 19:52:17 +0200") X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cloud103.planethippo.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - russet.org.uk X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: cloud103.planethippo.com: authenticated_id: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk X-Authenticated-Sender: cloud103.planethippo.com: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 78.129.138.110 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229232 Archived-At: Ergus writes: > I find the new one a little bit more simple, very basic, but some > details are updated in a less technical language. It assumes that for > new users coming from windows, vim, sublime, Visual Studio...; Emacs > will be a more different (hard maybe) experience than what they expect > and are used to. Yep, I started off my assuming modern terminology, then associated the Emacs terminology with it. I think that this is important. > The actual tutorial is fine, but in my modest opinion I would like to > suggest some pedagogical changes like divide it by numbered lessons, put > numbers to the tasks, add summaries per lesson, some aesthetic > horizontal lines... Please, give a look for example to the vimtutor. It > has a very good approach in this aspects. All of this would make sense. In the end, my thought was to write the tutorial in org, then generate it either to info or to HTML, maybe pimping up EWW a bit to handle things better. Numbering would become automatic then. > Respecting to content maybe some details about using overwrite-mode > (using the Insert key of course), This is the kind of thing that I would rather not do. Overwrite-mode is just the implementation detail of how Emacs achieves overwriting is a standard function of most applications. > moving/copping/switching lines/words/letters, interactive replace > (M-%) shell commands (M-| and M-! and in-place insertion), > insert-buffer/file and equivalent commands. Practical examples about > killing N words or N lines and paste them somewhere else. Goto line is > also important on the beginning. > > In i think that the emacs tutorial should explain at least the same > points than vimtutor respecting to text edition because that's the first > thing the user expects to do in emacs. If some edition actions in the > vimtutor are not possible or very complex to do in emacs maybe we need > to consider how to add them in a simpler way because they are very basic > (for example copy the current line requires C-a C-SPC C-e M-w). These > details are more important and basic for a new user than recursive > editing modes or talking about multiple frames/windows in the first day. > > We should also mention there helpful things like which-key, ido-mode, > linum which makes our lives easier. Yeah. The reason that I finish off with installing packages is that I think as branching tutorial would be the right thing to do, extending from ELPA. Phil