From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 12:42:59 +0800 Message-ID: <877dy91mb0.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <863691n4xl.wl-me@enzu.ru> <87imhw431x.fsf@yahoo.com> <87mu78huhx.fsf_-_@yahoo.com> <87k12bdgx7.fsf@yahoo.com> <87a736wyed.fsf@yahoo.com> <2F7AD0CB-FF83-4244-BD77-7E0460A77762@icloud.com> <87wo6a7abj.fsf@yahoo.com> <87o8rlbnic.fsf@yahoo.com> <45098d13-2770-4a19-6f82-b22276eb51c8@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="105896"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: =?utf-8?B?7KGw7ISx67mI?= , =?utf-8?Q?S=C3=A9bas?= =?utf-8?Q?tien?= Gendre , Emacs developers To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Apr 21 06:43:42 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jQkl3-000RSI-Tg for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 06:43:41 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50706 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQkl2-0001ce-Ui for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 00:43:40 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:38308) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQkkX-0001CH-6F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 00:43:09 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQkkW-0007AP-C3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 00:43:08 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic314-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.189.148]:37950) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQkkV-00077z-VS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 00:43:08 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1587444186; bh=5/2cM9+QHV5S7aKmumtH3LErbrq2RMFzR9SX7e0K5C8=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=Tb585R7yCZ3bIJ/cFviPb0b8a9vAX/OcM9UPFfWTfPtZQIcHg78kY5ylNLLFhrwWW/kRgKrEeY0jXROxRZjqYbuLlPF8m1vfzQFFoZAguxy14P5zwUGq4ScYv0cWe3vmNY1GPJEkLA90qDO4TZY2WrhscHy5m705P8oiXQ05H+3gtxhchmruAl66zYCGEEsq2v2xT3ISheR+ckpJcfCKUm3OdcAsEFuHOR2efJRmGgbbK1HecfJk+4nUyRm//jcRD9sRzLzw3aEFnwl3kMhb/Ttcwe9hTfWcKIgPgAGxLsso64MT4+z7I+v7TvXHLY/YacbhxBGGI+jenqKawnMufw== X-YMail-OSG: IdDoCuUVM1lsxIqb2curZ5F2VOgJpGhMbcxp.9ZIyfpFh._TAt8rI8jm6IpkbLJ NHDrIJdm.aJ1yrE4vDznglyHSF.FKs31IBF8uI7rzcO5gwcmavWX6UoUxoZYDjlo2zmo67Ogh5Ar n7alhhozXud7ep_8HJUNurR1jIinkNj0Mf7MJyuDGUEoSBde371ipje.T96aBg4aFxJNoigIT6.R Mh.Tv8vjqbvFG8e8Of4PDAg14gapk57Yi5bfWx.2c88Kq3vBHiTAMgk_QWIqFVh2D6ph7PJml1KV eiTOXGd8x8GNmHvQEW1NGTlFA.IPPjSM7i5pg.foJOAveQsrFr8ZoRQrm.jcUEXq.Y2CkXQ.iq4q HDYyZUzdmBAjgYY42S6tizlH5yYkMMHB7hjqGKB0HZmJnLsXzrgwDZFzAfjpwChehkeo7PB8QlLr 4hpPqz5ZJcft5C32pVw8jZU7Hw34830RV0lATkTerf_wuZctzCEoqQfKfzFSXq.2ZZsZMaJA8Pck MsCI_USjIKdwa94VmVQoWYbpw9SYowwQHbge.QMeaDpoY_yNvlyF8sIy4kzq4BBVK61iLTmXkNIl xg383o2ZOTEVCasrxJjq6rT4V7FbYi9gEaL8s7cRdej9yiXt1cnAiuqgut3l5zRq0yc00XH5MGJs wAlFIgfjrxOH.1ugWvmDO2nUYKIYa84QzVqxJbsFss8Kp227QXcnypnWC1sfKbpqAqQX7MEQ3zwI BeogfBM9RUdvYUOuQrC9EStFS8dJvY_vOZrQaEDqh35.LenIoLBsrMOUoJY.NDWrJGX9MDG.5hKC 6uUF9t.x4pu8QB1bGyGdLILJ_T6Bk7EYMoi1doGg6S Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic314.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 04:43:06 +0000 Original-Received: by smtp415.mail.sg3.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 1dc0a4f5371aa5b21d35a4c9df435e3d; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 04:43:03 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <45098d13-2770-4a19-6f82-b22276eb51c8@yandex.ru> (Dmitry Gutov's message of "Tue, 21 Apr 2020 05:17:00 +0300") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15739 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.189.148; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic314-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/04/21 00:43:06 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 X-Received-From: 66.163.189.148 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247450 Archived-At: Dmitry Gutov writes: > Please keep in mind that if we hope to make Emacs reach, say, 30% > share among programmers, the extra 25% would be new users. We should prioritize existing users over hypothetical users that don't even exist yet. > So for all questions about changing defaults, we should ask ourselves, > do we prioritize the existing 5% (or 3%, as SO poll says) userbase > that will naturally continue shrinking over the years, or whether we > prefer to make life easier and more productive for the users that > should come later. One exists. The other doesn't. Which one would you choose? > And it's not like existing, long-time users can't grow to like the new > defaults (even after a certain amount of grumbling). I think the Xref > example shows that. Xref was bad enough. Changing C-a to "select all" would be worse.