From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Gitlab Migration Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 13:21:22 +1000 Message-ID: <877dg65j3d.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87h7fcnmq0.fsf@posteo.net> <87o89kw0hl.fsf@gnus.org> <0c369b25-aedd-1fdf-4813-503f27e42c7c@yandex.ru> <874kbbznwv.fsf@gmail.com> <8735qvwcqt.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="8603"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.6.5; emacs 27.2.50 Cc: Daniel Fleischer , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Arthur Miller Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Aug 28 05:45:06 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mJpHF-000224-Ue for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 05:45:06 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49982 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mJpHE-0008Nf-9z for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 23:45:04 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:41896) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mJpGh-0007iC-Al for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 23:44:31 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pj1-x102f.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::102f]:34700) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mJpGf-00075g-EU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 23:44:31 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pj1-x102f.google.com with SMTP id ot2-20020a17090b3b4200b0019127f8ed87so9076979pjb.1 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 20:44:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version; bh=TM7PHE832M3eU8gu1iWYsGpJOoH/pWR2o7Mpi0x6WtI=; b=uHf7/XJfij1IzEA9YUOVlOanYYchMM//HdZNKIjRjm3YYACAjrY5c4k0P/gizGeVm4 3Q8Cmf1+bhJrMAqdu3tu7sxabflicQnvqoqgM3xCjTRW4dpJFz8CzVuBy6kln37IaX3+ FwL70t75tYqbD85zclfFn3o7frO6W9Vzl+pMaRnq82FEnvPIgdHAVs3TnP96raSJFF99 Ten6LNjoQ4lAm6OOeGK3O6IhmcYxCexBUSNDh2RPyMy91003BI+F93qZwF5X7QltKMvt 1TZ7Kz1maPOIMm+DC9nAk9RbrH7+lKX6xS+6KQd007BpRNoQ4RgNKZmQb37ZDOT0xARs w0Ug== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version; bh=TM7PHE832M3eU8gu1iWYsGpJOoH/pWR2o7Mpi0x6WtI=; b=Hz3nOmNqT6fHbSDej4gzJLKPwqXZLGxkjvWVJ6S+EquAosSLcow/P8B38WhNsYr14D zBBciPcZnAng1V0snj6G1fqNUn2qwuW1zdTemi0G0hhbTGVBIuYT3+iN72ijF69XXx6B NT36+balmsgd3wUdXOVkDZvp9MSoJgz+3MtVJmwfFs6fzcuISfqcfA2IXdnYaYNugCK7 SD4PWcDRIbW0oca5PQSK/KuHQsprXOLECmCHaD+vQ6Ark4XkLgOXOu/aRajMfUKjRcZq apKsVQwhf8+/tkhaRygpMqWX5brZBNIK+VkLKkNT8o+IY+j/VaY2mLlWDYOMfaj+D/vv 7bGQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532uot0i5C3w1JDOViTeHRsYjHOGApULTsyRNPlt2c9ubrq+d0An dSejdXI0wJKqU+8QRmnZguUHeFuBuFA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy6WtYxpIMRsm/iz1h9/vROtxZkTuEKWegbWFwys9rvp/tDwLb18nIEmiMrTGd1urHDsV099w== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:7d90:b0:134:d977:22de with SMTP id a16-20020a1709027d9000b00134d97722demr11984337plm.30.1630122267156; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 20:44:27 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from tim-desktop (106-69-152-38.dyn.iinet.net.au. [106.69.152.38]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g12sm7625915pjh.33.2021.08.27.20.44.24 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 27 Aug 2021 20:44:26 -0700 (PDT) In-reply-to: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::102f; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x102f.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:273218 Archived-At: Arthur Miller writes: > Tim Cross writes: > >> Daniel Fleischer writes: >> >>> Tim Cross [2021-08-27 Fri 11:01] *wrote*: >>> >>>> I'm not sure this is true. I think virtually all developers are forced >>>> to suffer email, but a gorwing number don't use it. Often, all the >>>> discussions, notifications, comments etc are actually consumed via a >>>> mobile 'app'. For these users, logging into their inbox is frustrating >>>> and inconvenient because their inbox is full of pointless and old >>>> messages/notifications/alerts they have already seen/received via other >>>> channels. For these users, the primary reason they have an email address >>>> is to have something to put into the 'login' box for web services they >>>> use. Telling these users to use email to submit a patch is very similar >>>> to me being told when I started using email that I had to send in a hard >>>> copy via snail mail. >>> >>> It's a very intersting point about what email represent to different >>> people that arising from this discussion. I'm half your age and use >>> email for 2 reasons: >>> >>> 1. It's an identify for today's web. As such, it's becoming the main >>> tool for tracking (especially as cookies phase out), so I use >>> multiple boxes and regard them is disposable and spam-infected. >>> >>> 2. Receiving official documents from institutions. >>> >>> I don't talk to family, friends or coworkers via mail. Personally, I >>> think it's old, not secure or private by default, very inconsistent >>> (HTML rendering is arbitrary vs. text, multiple MUA) and just can't >>> imagine using it as a software engineering tool. >>> >> >> Yep, that mirrors what I'm seeing as well. Many younger users really use >> it primarily to provide a unique identifier (login) and for when they >> have to deal with institutions that don't provide other alternatives. >> >> The other interesting trend I'm seeing is with many companies now >> working to minimise email as part of their internal/external workflows. >> Many companies are finding it a huge resource sink, cause of unnecessary >> stress/pressure on staff, source of significant security concerns and a >> real problem for records management. >> >> From the Emacs project perspective, providing alternative web based >> workflows similar to what github/gitlab/sourceHut provide would be >> beneficial. The challenge seems to be in finding software which meets >> FSF requirements. In particular, a solution which is mature enough and >> is not based on non-free Javascript libraries. > > I wouldn't agree with you that young people don't know how to use email. That is > something you are deriving yourself. Sure Instagram, Facebook, Dicord, Twitter, > Slack etc might be very popular as a mean of communication, but saying that > young people don't know how to use email is stretching it too far. I never said they don't know how to use email - I said they were not interested in using email. They use it when they are forced to, but it is not their preferred choice. We even asked students what they wanted and when you broke that information down by age, nearly 80% of under 25s indicated they would prefer non-email based communications. This is only one data point from one institution and only for one year, so there could be sampling error, cultural variation and possibly question bias based on wording etc. However, the results were in line with other feedback and comments. The preference for email also increased with age - older students showed a higher preference for email, which means the results could be related to experience and user maturity - we won't know until more time has passed. I cannot provide specific details because the information is classified as sensitive and internal only. It was part of analysis done at a smaller University (approx 25k students) where the main objective was to determine if providing students with an email account (actually o365 account), was beneficial or not. The result was that the majority of students were not interested in the email account (either because they already had one or because email was not a comms channel they cared about), but they did want the o365 account because of the access it gave them to other things, most notably Office suite.