From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ihor Radchenko Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Limitations on using Org mode in buffers mixing Org markup with non-Org markup (was: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2022 13:15:39 +0800 Message-ID: <877d5d44jo.fsf@localhost> References: <87leuca7v7.fsf@disroot.org> <877d5t0yrn.fsf@gmail.com> <83o7z47m7y.fsf@gnu.org> <8735gfs3is.fsf@localhost> <838rq75jhg.fsf@gnu.org> <87fskfqj97.fsf@localhost> <83zgin3zcm.fsf@gnu.org> <87fskei4fa.fsf@localhost> <831qvy41oj.fsf@gnu.org> <87tu8rq2l6.fsf@localhost> <83czffzo73.fsf@gnu.org> <87a6aiqnpc.fsf@localhost> <831qvuw98i.fsf@gnu.org> <87wndmp63n.fsf@localhost> <83sfoaurqk.fsf@gnu.org> <87tu8mv79u.fsf@localhost> <83czfart19.fsf@gnu.org> <87v8szrfz6.fsf@localhost> <83ilozpzce.fsf@gnu.org> <87k09ewpn9.fsf@localhost> <83letuo39n.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12652"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: theophilusx@gmail.com, acm@muc.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Jun 19 07:15:37 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1o2nHc-00033B-6d for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2022 07:15:36 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54056 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o2nHa-00026t-CI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2022 01:15:34 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44556) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o2nGc-0001RX-DU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2022 01:14:34 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-qv1-xf2e.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2e]:40793) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o2nGa-00037T-Rr; Sun, 19 Jun 2022 01:14:34 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-qv1-xf2e.google.com with SMTP id cu16so11301621qvb.7; Sat, 18 Jun 2022 22:14:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :mime-version; bh=HxEg7Uh0Kc4QfBnHq+wnpYVp2dtWdotiIwVAJhdtig4=; b=pNq0EDaVocDV3DB1Ln7nz9y0fNsMHpLNXXSvLSyKF2SNIlgLqA3kdQoomIqPHgm23S ld88OPzuxZyZgt2yepPlF+7Nmx8gg082/SYLXRo1/f3a8sKfnf+ybJ5Tq5eOjJLFiZ3c plsC6GfFvIR7xcC+mJ7TvZW2C10niau8306nAjtH4lPAbg30DQiyach/dAZhw0F4w4to Nkl5AwS0kpwKKoqRNEzh9LIzU06d+aAZ/FcIsLlco5gvIjXWEMCrHLMgslEMb8caxwgO 9Zg7tjvI2ghTTgzO48yv13xc3E0rzM+T4m9aka68vIyUx63MxMhr8ns1ZyuM5JsZLYLd 7iuQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:mime-version; bh=HxEg7Uh0Kc4QfBnHq+wnpYVp2dtWdotiIwVAJhdtig4=; b=BJ/St0BHVZeeKf4QvQaPFwD0YBLzYnjOH6Oq3VIGRr20SrnfMnpzaIklCYaK5Ic+L7 5wqQId3mamJi24+5I8CjWW3hLHXvy0PIt4QdNMPU0ddWgNtIArJQ+FHW848H6Q2/ZxD8 YundDEGzi4XLqezC/sGQ1F2JPbaavzxHFjXh4bTWAcsDvzG/1czCNMCao0AD6th8ER9G TQ/pd8cA+HZzJZ99aD84lZOZH4yz7tLWP+QrMVtHXxpZSIpfak6CI24gcWAq+GnDclw4 USwoLo7L5fhSZDXxDd0ukBV4adxyPOnVctMHAUNXViD9V805Zc2Tlc0nzGFq49/iQwMc kldQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora9VdE+wqXkQ8/oKKTFlc1WLztUKQwRgxSDFw42MVVEE9ASdWtJU TO25NAl8sguGh+JkBIe0JcaK7P8+4PaoTJ3B X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1ukzGPZ1oJmMXTNMKmmNC57fWDVZ++RlM2wKkTOb3vYm1zxQkOm40uxLssFjDgd1tari9lSuQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:2589:b0:46e:6ac1:84be with SMTP id fq9-20020a056214258900b0046e6ac184bemr14964246qvb.96.1655615671177; Sat, 18 Jun 2022 22:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost ([208.167.237.62]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v3-20020a05620a0f0300b006a7502d0070sm9183225qkl.21.2022.06.18.22.14.30 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 18 Jun 2022 22:14:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83letuo39n.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2e; envelope-from=yantar92@gmail.com; helo=mail-qv1-xf2e.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:291398 Archived-At: I will reply to the last paragraph only. Other questions appear to be settled. Eli Zaretskii writes: >> The convention for indicating "markup" in emails is associating the >> correct mime-type to the message part. If it is html, the mail agent >> should render html. If it is Org, Org can be rendered. If it is plain >> text, the behavior is undefined in principle - people sending plain text >> should make the text readable as plain text in text-mode (Org can be >> made readable usually, but same can be said for e.g. Markdown). > > The difference between HTML and Org is that all MUAs support the > former, whereas Org can only be supported by Emacs-based MUA (and is > not supported by all Emacs-based MUA: e.g., Rmail doesn't currently > support it), and then only if the mime-type has been set correctly. I think I was not very clear in the above. I do not advocate that MUA should support Org out of the box (it would be nice if it could, especially if people use Org instead of html, but that is a bit tangent to what I was talking about). I'd like to focus on plain text. If we forget about Org _major mode_, there is Org markup. Some people may disagree, but Org markup is perfectly readable as a non-rendered plain text. Similarly, Markdown is perfectly readable. Or any other ad-hoc self-consistent plain text convention. Admittedly, Org may be a bit too verbose in some cases (for some people, not for me; and it does not mean that alternative opinions should be ignored). (I do not say that abusing Org markup cannot make plain text unreadable, it can be said even for the purest plain text email; it was discussed in another branch). On top of being readable Org/Markdown can also be exported to html adding a benefit to users who prefer html rendering. Unlike Markdown (AFAIK), Org can also be exported to plain text, removing all the "unnecessary markup clutter" some people are so triggered about. Ideally, if some user prefers to use Org markup when writing emails, MUA should take care about supplying appropriately converted plain text version and html version of the mime-parts. That will let people read whatever format they prefer. Not all MUA support this, unfortunately. So, we have what we have and some people prefer to *write* emails using Org markup and others do not like to *read* such emails. Best, Ihor