From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Abysmal state of GTK build Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2022 15:55:16 +0800 Message-ID: <877d30g1az.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87ilmlluxq.fsf.ref@yahoo.com> <87ilmlluxq.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h725olz1.fsf@gnus.org> <87zgfxn6lt.fsf@gnus.org> <87tu65k9ec.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r119lnsd.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtbxlnf1.fsf@gnus.org> <87czctk890.fsf@yahoo.com> <87a67xlm9v.fsf@gnus.org> <87k070g6l0.fsf@yahoo.com> <8635do4u9b.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="25709"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cc: Lynn Winebarger , Lars Ingebrigtsen , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Tim Cross Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 22 09:56:52 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oQ2Im-0006b6-Bk for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 09:56:52 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40874 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQ2Ik-0007eB-E7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 03:56:50 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:42164) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQ2HV-0006rf-Eq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 03:55:34 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic311-23.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.188.204]:33327) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQ2HP-0004ki-Fy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 03:55:31 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1661154924; bh=VfkuJl3HZu6LSA6+kzkhJVJieZBxuvCc9N4DiBA2cag=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=A9UnpnPhEnVvK54wiQGvJ++uCFOHE+BxX5MrhbDqjHFZIjH4vL7WNtGshwFtek/jXerKGgLLYlHFGsf7M4JCsW/mqq9xrznA64ES1L0r4p78iZNWjQwkEYKs7ZKQfaPBZ5zQS2q8dqHlfDUuq4VWLUKgZ0XaMob7C/B69DzarfRI3dtC4QqT0zJzw3dukikh2kCgEOwOyT17wzTGPVDRejhLw4nUcmQefJDcgStrE9bKkojUlBlZzkvqsIavLzhdC96ddqfx7e4vZKvV6NkvMScLMNobv2+njrNBvk9qLyfYG6ySgBFxMtngZ2o11Th5H5LKURNmZvJddnhY71KbZA== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1661154924; bh=bvQb0EnkAT3G3QOtHTSkzUbmomjOouIunep3lOWeAx/=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=qzgKIBmxic2ICJrAqqS729RFpVGGejN1W+auvik6+SsdRF9nxwN3xZMmDHD7KyxUemgXPwyNpjsmzFKMwhoarYiYTY8V4NCoE6Nf0Ep+u+Gsas49+AlSznK1loE087RR/M6CISh8eDPAaxMBR93R0t+nHRu8iJ4ItRu3PxK7V/Ncym75sJ3jINHjzMBfyPs9SH8lMnJSlA+OnGskHkxZUSyx4zbksSUyc2HQhEh/rCiGwCjHse+9UB5Hiu2XafPztFSi0qyfAhv9JYn14J6jyaGcxeQkAVo9I98Ugigc19VAnmn7/4JF63BEjCWt+eeOJdEanIdn0xHTJzTASubKXA== X-YMail-OSG: y.28gVIVM1m8AP8CiLYapH1XEhY6WSr5HSp.g9fY2lMpjKOZKyXAOy7QLn8zqDc 5_lttNRfjEHkU6iPPkve0Sbxpp3w6XUw4C7nx6Ns7cmMAx1Stx1indUrEZ78ADuCRoNiDLax6cH7 ZcsD6l.fhEwxuMBimaWv2ifRFyQuQ3QLKXeqPJEcSIHNvfQSQptjSo_LS.5bw70P2n9MMvQZmq1a pCojVwfwjvrWez0Zzj71JwNM474XTaNdxQe_yhS4kN5cylmy.KI3X3V2ZsgALqf6M.Kpw71HV8yu Mp0cgFRnti6tihrAhbkOkduIjFsNdZcnhtQUtphnOZXh.Xt2IaiVNI.HpVrRzDPtDNGx7dQV47AO an3zFTZK3csiR5tuF.mjqW8KDjKbxi1rFocOKnTbONgjUJwTQ3c3C_hoANSUs17KjDe14EnBso9N Zj2qRy6oQRyQi2hohFn8ioZ72qvabJn_RUP_dhit1jm4fVAGJJDI4MSXMgB8L75bZpFRCUU32T25 VTAK6IiPJdsxnsaV0DT_dlnc8JAyMP.kKiHIElQ5Qx6yU.W4ofW_D05QzqkRV2jwqmkWfCAmJcAn wnZumiVH28lD4AuyUvU5K6C7trbJLeDOfxOgXdXxw23qyPNn2G.TAFsGQQ8F7hw32eoRzwt1TtyT TCUpr2XjoJGLCdqHupFoGqtVldStkyEBFBzjT2BzzltqnDrbr6lrdgALvr9xFRF75WN2V_Arcjjd ebRhGcD3LDjTL00qPO6B27e6sV.raEV9DlbWGNxdS.L.dQcwjjstN4cxihQbdRqKBZ_ZWdlHF6Oh t6m_Bd9oQNiIyyug.8MH3MBzqzO.zwNt6984g23BvQ X-Sonic-MF: Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic311.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 07:55:24 +0000 Original-Received: by hermes--canary-production-sg3-6f58cd9b5-fl5rh (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 3628b0821f38439153931556711b3adb; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 07:55:20 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <8635do4u9b.fsf@gmail.com> (Tim Cross's message of "Mon, 22 Aug 2022 16:48:17 +1000") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20560 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.188.204; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic311-23.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:293779 Archived-At: Tim Cross writes: > Like others in this thread, I don't use the menu-bar, toolbar, > scroll-bars etc, so toolkit seems somewhat irrelevant (I have to do an > M-x version to see which one I'm using!). I build using lucid as that > seemed like a better choice than gtk and I use xfce rather than gnome as > my desktop environment (and sometimes stumpwm). [...] > I suspect a part of the decision regarding which toolkit to build emacs > with for various distros probably relates to minimising the number of > toolkits to install. As Gnome seems to be the current 'default', gtk is > already installed, so will likely be a preferred choice unless some > other compelling reason is given. The problem here is not a stylistic issue. I want to disable the GTK build by default because it leads to serious problems for users, up to and including crashes. > With Fedora now shipping with Wayland as default and the recent > announcement regarding nvidia driver licensing and support for nvidia > under wayland, I suspectg we will see a significant growth in > distributions defaulting to wayland and wanting to reduce/remove > dependency on X. The regular GTK build of Emacs will not run on GNOME Wayland either. People who want to use Wayland should use the different PGTK build instead. > One factor which will likely come into play if we changed the default > toolkit is theming. I've noticed that in both the most recent releases > of Ubuntu and Fedora, a lot of reviews and comments centred around > improved consistency in themes (especially consistency when switching > between light/dark themes). With a lucid build, I expect you will need > to setup X resources to match your theme. With the GTK build, it looks > like it inherits from whatever you set your default theme to (for menus > etc). Emacs's own interface doesn't respect any toolkit theme. > Personally, I tend to define my theme and just leave it. I do use a dark > theme and after many years, I have a good default Xresources, so not a > big issue for me (with the exception of some qt based apps). However, > for a generation brought up using Gnome, the whole xrdb stuff is likely > to be challenging/frustrating. I assume similar issues will exist for > the no toolket default. The no toolkit build can be customized entirely with Lisp. > I don't think this is sufficient reason not to change the default to > (lets say) lucid - just mention it as I suspect it will cause some > disruption/frustration. There also seems to be a lot of bad > information about using/setting Xresources out there, which might add > to the confusion. Are you sure what you understand "this" is? I'm going to say this again: defaulting to the GTK build because it "looks better" or is "more consistent" is quite simply trading crashes for looks.