From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Philip Kaludercic Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Adding a "quick-help" menu Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2022 14:44:39 +0000 Message-ID: <877d223vs8.fsf@posteo.net> References: <87v8pn4968.fsf@posteo.net> <87r10b465q.fsf@posteo.net> <87mtaz44ka.fsf@posteo.net> <87o7ve19uc.fsf@no.workgroup> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="25820"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 17 16:46:11 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oZZ59-0006UF-0n for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 17 Sep 2022 16:46:11 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:48478 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oZZ57-0007z4-Hw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 17 Sep 2022 10:46:09 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:42994) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oZZ3k-0007Gb-OK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Sep 2022 10:44:45 -0400 Original-Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:42181) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oZZ3i-00049u-IL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Sep 2022 10:44:44 -0400 Original-Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3348624002A for ; Sat, 17 Sep 2022 16:44:39 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1663425880; bh=z/a1Ah4w5c7WVIxeFZOvz/Yz0N9VZJooZSf25iID2KQ=; h=From:To:Subject:Autocrypt:Date:From; b=bA84TrqvY+gYP9QbNlErDcLIpoIU/nhxvqcyGWOMkBJQsr6YNzoZh3DRpgbWd77Hy UonVWxCswrGsDUTvAeSQDtnkr8z1+EmpzrSJT5EpdYbjhaPG6YDfLPKKQwMReE1C/o PI/CZzP9dkmpTKQQpLxeVkfZ7Q15If9vtfPMWRM6M2+hV4KMtLYoW5bCzA8eWnuRFY 8BYOdOJ0akiV3lZNIEi0UUfaurhk/kjZ3X3ZdRHjjemkIb60pXzgmXYbQfwYFsVYYZ VGNIV1QBJcUa2TggP1m481HkNwgNW4Yhfu7zH0CrYq7egvdVw+3/EsLZVaCfGWxuv3 cSYj9Bf8zsEkA== Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4MVDHC4TcTz9rxN for ; Sat, 17 Sep 2022 16:44:39 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <87o7ve19uc.fsf@no.workgroup> (Gregor Zattler's message of "Sat, 17 Sep 2022 14:09:15 +0200") Autocrypt: addr=philipk@posteo.net; prefer-encrypt=nopreference; keydata= mDMEYHHqUhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAp3GdmYJ6tm5McweY6dEvIYIiry+Oz9rU4MH6NHWK0Ee0QlBo aWxpcCBLYWx1ZGVyY2ljIChnZW5lcmF0ZWQgYnkgYXV0b2NyeXB0LmVsKSA8cGhpbGlwa0Bwb3N0 ZW8ubmV0PoiQBBMWCAA4FiEEDM2H44ZoPt9Ms0eHtVrAHPRh1FwFAmBx6lICGwMFCwkIBwIGFQoJ CAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQtVrAHPRh1FyTkgEAjlbGPxFchvMbxzAES3r8QLuZgCxeAXunM9gh io0ePtUBALVhh9G6wIoZhl0gUCbQpoN/UJHI08Gm1qDob5zDxnIHuDgEYHHqUhIKKwYBBAGXVQEF AQEHQNcRB+MUimTMqoxxMMUERpOR+Q4b1KgncDZkhrO2ql1tAwEIB4h4BBgWCAAgFiEEDM2H44Zo Pt9Ms0eHtVrAHPRh1FwFAmBx6lICGwwACgkQtVrAHPRh1Fw1JwD/Qo7kvtib8jy7puyWrSv0MeTS g8qIxgoRWJE/KKdkCLEA/jb9b9/g8nnX+UcwHf/4VfKsjExlnND3FrBviXUW6NcB Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.65; envelope-from=philipk@posteo.net; helo=mout01.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:295526 Archived-At: Gregor Zattler writes: > Hi Philip, emacs developers, > * Philip Kaludercic [2022-09-16; 17:22 GMT]: >> Yes, but just like there is a difference between auto-completion and >> tab-completion, there is a difference to be considered here. > > for me the main difference to all other help facilities is, > that there is zero cognitive burden: It only pops up when I > hit a prefix key and then don't know what to do. What kind of prefix keys are we talking about? Could you give me a recent example for where which-key was useful to you (or anyone else)? > It specifically shows help to this prefix key, I do not have > to move the mouse, I do not have to look for a symbol to > click or a menu entry which might be related. But none of this is necessary when you press C-h. The only disadvantage is that you would have to repeat the prefix, but I think that could be changed. > I do not have to know how to bury or kill it, it does not > litter my buffer list with jet another buried buffer, it > does not permanently change my window configuration. Do you meant the *Help* buffer? > I think these are great features especially for newbies. > >> Again, I don't think there is anything in Emacs by default that relies >> on non-input the way which-key does. One reason I dislike this is >> because I've seen how some people use `which-key-mode' in person, just >> waiting for the menu to (fragile) pop up, to skim through the columns to >> find what they are looking for. By comparison, I think that C-h and >> isearch/occur/etc. is more idiomatic. > > But much more involved to use and they leave traces as > which-key does not. I personally think this is an advantage (though I wouldn't put it the way you did). To me `which-key' -- the way it is configured by default -- seems fragile and unreliable. A help buffer is just-another-buffer and doesn't appear to be an exception to the rest of how Emacs works. >> That being said, my proposal is much more modest, and has more to do >> with Nano's default help bar at the bottom of the screen. > > My praise of which-key is in no way directed against your > proposal of a screen full of essential functions. Don't worry, I didn't take it that way, I just wanted to return to the initial topic of the thread.