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From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net>
To: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Complex SPEC for variables/customization like font-lock-keywords/org-capture-templates/etc (was: Instead of pcase)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2023 08:54:31 +0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <877cmgdak8.fsf@localhost> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <878r6xef86.fsf@posteo.net>

Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> writes:

> Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> writes:
>
> ...  If one has to talk about difficult to understand/remember
> domain specific languages, then `font-lock-defaults' would be a much
> more pressing candidate.

Or font-lock-keywords... Last time I were seriously developing new
keywords, I had to do it by trial-and-error and even examine font-lock
sources.

We also have similar issues with complex specifications in Org mode -
org-capture-templates, org-agenda-custom-commands, etc.

I believe that it is a general problem relevant various non-trivial
variables/customization we have across Emacs and Emacs packages -
developers, or, more frequently, Emacs users have significant
difficulties understanding the obscure ad-hoc languages we have to
invent for font-locking, templates, etc.

The most common confusions are related to:

1. Quoting deeply nested lists
2. Keeping track of what each of the list elements refers to.
   For example, font-lock-keywords may contain something like
   
   (lisp--match-hidden-arg
   (0
    '(face font-lock-warning-face help-echo
	   "Easy to misread; consider moving the element to the next line")
    prepend))

    It is hard to parse without constantly examining the docstring.

Customize interface somewhat helps with (2), but many users avoid it and
instead prefer to write init.el manually. Also, developers cannot even
use customize interface (for example when developing
font-lock-keywords).

(1) is also a rather common problem, especially when both quoted and
unquoted version of a list element are technically valid (for example,
consider 'face-name vs. face-name in font-lock-keywords - a rather
common confusion for me).

I do not know a good solution to the above, and thus would like to
discuss this problem.

Some possible ideas:

1. Provide some universal mechanism for type-validation of variables.
   Something similar to :type spec in defcustom, but for Elisp
   variables. This will at least catch invalid values.

2. Provide custom warning mechanism catching common mistakes in the
   variables SPEC. For example, 'face-name vs. face-name for
   font-lock-keywords in the above example.

3. Enhance eldoc to show a tip about variable value structure, similar
   to what is done for function arguments.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>



  reply	other threads:[~2023-11-17  8:54 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 342+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2023-11-16  3:04 Instead of pcase Richard Stallman
2023-11-16  7:37 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-11-16 17:18   ` T.V Raman
2023-11-16 17:44     ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-16 18:16       ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-11-17  8:54         ` Ihor Radchenko [this message]
2023-11-25  4:03           ` Complex SPEC for variables/customization like font-lock-keywords/org-capture-templates/etc Stefan Monnier
2023-11-16 19:19       ` Instead of pcase Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-17  8:02         ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-16 18:21     ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-16 18:39       ` T.V Raman
2023-11-16 18:47         ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-11-16 18:51           ` T.V Raman
2023-11-18  3:04           ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-19 12:23             ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 16:02               ` Barry Fishman
2023-11-19 17:59                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 19:31                   ` Eric Abrahamsen
2023-11-25  4:23                     ` Stefan Monnier via Emacs development discussions.
2023-11-27  3:12                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-19 21:15                   ` Barry Fishman
2023-11-20  1:15                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-20 15:32                     ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-23  2:57                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-24 17:14                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-27  3:09                           ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-27 12:21                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-29  3:42                               ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-29 12:56                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-12-01  3:17                                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-28  2:44                           ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-28 12:39                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-30  3:37                               ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-01  0:18                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-12-01  5:51                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-12-10  8:34                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-12-10  9:35                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-10  9:53                                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-12-10 10:35                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-10 11:05                                             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-12-01  7:21                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01  8:03                                     ` Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-02  3:21                                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-24 18:14                         ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-24 18:35                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-27  3:14                           ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-28  2:46                             ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-28  6:35                               ` Nikita Domnitskii
2023-11-30  3:37                                 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-02 21:37                                 ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-12-10 15:14                             ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-10 16:27                               ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-12-10 20:28                                 ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-10 21:13                                   ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-12-12  3:43                                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-12  6:46                                     ` Tomas Hlavaty
2023-12-12 15:18                                     ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2023-12-14  3:24                                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-14 16:52                                         ` Drew Adams
2023-12-16  4:24                                           ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-16  5:04                                             ` Drew Adams
2023-12-16 18:30                                               ` Bob Rogers
2023-12-18  4:13                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-12 19:24                                     ` Tomas Hlavaty
2023-12-12 21:36                                       ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2023-12-12 22:25                                         ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-13  1:32                                     ` Adam Porter
2023-12-14  3:23                                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-16  4:23                                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-18  4:09                                         ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-18 10:08                                           ` cond* João Távora
2023-12-21  4:20                                             ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-21  9:50                                               ` cond* João Távora
2023-12-21 16:01                                                 ` [External] : cond* Drew Adams
2023-12-21 16:20                                                   ` João Távora
2023-12-24  3:56                                                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-24  3:57                                                 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-21 14:10                                               ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2023-12-24  3:57                                                 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-25 14:14                                                   ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2023-12-19  3:49                                           ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-19 12:13                                             ` cond* João Távora
2023-12-22  3:14                                               ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-22  7:27                                                 ` cond* Philip Kaludercic
2023-12-25  3:41                                                   ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-25 12:32                                                     ` cond* Philip Kaludercic
2023-12-27  4:54                                                       ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-27 14:34                                                         ` cond* Philip Kaludercic
2023-12-29  3:52                                                           ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-01 14:49                                                             ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-03  4:13                                                               ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-03 15:57                                                                 ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-05  4:23                                                                   ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-06 14:33                                                                     ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-06 22:25                                                                       ` [External] : cond* Drew Adams
2024-01-08  3:45                                                                         ` Richard Stallman
2024-01-08 15:20                                                                           ` Drew Adams
2024-01-09  2:53                                                                           ` map seq and radix-tree-leaf, in pcase Richard Stallman
2024-01-08  3:47                                                                       ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-10 13:03                                                                         ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-13  3:50                                                                           ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-13  6:32                                                                             ` cond* Adam Porter
2024-01-16  3:31                                                                               ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-13 19:47                                                                             ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-15  3:13                                                                               ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-08  3:47                                                                       ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-08 15:13                                                                         ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-27  3:37                                                                           ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-02-01 16:26                                                                             ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-02-03  3:36                                                                               ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-02-03 16:52                                                                                 ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-03  4:13                                                               ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-03 15:48                                                                 ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-06  4:31                                                                   ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-06 13:09                                                                     ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-08  3:47                                                                       ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-08 15:26                                                                         ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-27  3:37                                                                           ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-03  4:13                                                               ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-03 15:50                                                                 ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-06  4:31                                                                   ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-06 13:13                                                                     ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-08  3:47                                                                       ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-08 15:35                                                                         ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2023-12-19 15:53                                             ` [External] : cond* Drew Adams
2023-12-21  4:22                                               ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-21  4:22                                               ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-18  4:09                                         ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-18  5:41                                           ` cond* Adam Porter
2023-12-21  4:20                                             ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-16  4:23                                       ` Instead of pcase Richard Stallman
2023-12-16  4:23                                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-16  6:57                                         ` Adam Porter
2023-12-20  3:28                                           ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-20 10:52                                             ` Adam Porter
2023-12-23  2:53                                               ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-23  2:53                                               ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-25 14:26                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-12-27  4:54                                                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-28 13:05                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-12-30  3:20                                                       ` Richard Stallman
2024-01-01 14:33                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-03  4:13                                                           ` Richard Stallman
2024-01-03  4:13                                                           ` Richard Stallman
2024-01-03 16:08                                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-05  4:23                                                               ` Richard Stallman
2024-01-06 13:04                                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-08  3:47                                                                   ` Richard Stallman
2024-01-08 15:42                                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-27  3:37                                                                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-13  4:58                                     ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-11  3:31                                 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-19 13:49             ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-21  2:42               ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-21  5:14                 ` Jim Porter
2023-11-21  5:34                 ` Yuri Khan
2023-11-21 11:11                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-21 15:38                   ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-23  3:00                     ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-24  3:34                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-24  4:30                     ` Jim Porter
2023-11-24  7:45                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-25  3:08                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-24 17:01                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-24 17:29                 ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-11-28  2:44                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-30 19:14                     ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-11-30 19:26                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-30 20:30                         ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-01  6:24                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01 15:47                             ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-01 16:07                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01 20:27                               ` Alan Mackenzie
2023-12-02 13:24                                 ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-02 13:51                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-12-04  3:11                                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-03  3:28                                 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-30 20:47                         ` João Távora
2023-12-01  6:31                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01  7:07                             ` Yuri Khan
2023-12-01  8:10                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01  9:04                                 ` Andreas Schwab
2023-12-04  3:08                                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-04 11:58                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-04 12:35                                       ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-12-04 13:20                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-04 17:46                                           ` Andreas Schwab
2023-12-07  2:48                                             ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-07 17:42                                               ` Andreas Schwab
2023-12-09  4:02                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-04 18:17                                           ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-12-04 12:37                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-12-08  3:54                                         ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-01 10:13                                 ` João Távora
2023-12-01  8:35                             ` Andreas Schwab
2023-12-01 10:02                             ` João Távora
2023-12-01 11:52                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01 12:48                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-12-01 14:44                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01 18:28                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-12-01 18:40                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01 18:45                                       ` João Távora
2024-01-09  5:36                                         ` Stefan Kangas
2023-12-01 13:28                                 ` João Távora
2023-12-01 16:25                                 ` Andreas Schwab
2024-01-09  5:33                               ` Stefan Kangas
2024-01-09 10:43                                 ` João Távora
2023-12-01 16:04                             ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-01 16:33                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-02  3:20                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-02  8:41                         ` Andreas Schwab
2023-12-02  9:02                           ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-12-02 10:14                             ` Emanuel Berg
2023-12-02 17:02                               ` Barry Fishman
2023-12-02 20:25                                 ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-03  4:30                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-12-05  2:58                           ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-05  3:36                             ` chad
2023-12-08  3:53                               ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-02 14:33                         ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-04  3:11                           ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-02 18:01                         ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-12-04  3:11                           ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-04 12:27                             ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-12-03  3:27                         ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-25  4:15                 ` Stefan Monnier
2023-11-27  3:12                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-30 18:06                     ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-16 18:49         ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-16 23:41     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-17  7:34       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-26  3:17   ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-16 15:06 ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-16 17:31   ` T.V Raman
2023-11-16 18:26     ` Jim Porter
2023-11-16 18:40       ` T.V Raman
2023-11-16 19:13         ` Jim Porter
2023-11-20  3:06   ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-20 14:35     ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-23  2:57       ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-16 15:20 ` Spencer Baugh
2023-11-16 20:16   ` Tomas Hlavaty
2023-11-16 21:37     ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2023-11-25  4:34     ` Stefan Monnier via Emacs development discussions.
2023-11-25  8:53       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-18  3:03   ` combining cond and let, to replace pcase Richard Stallman
2023-11-19 11:20     ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 11:43       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 12:16         ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-11-19 13:21           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 13:32             ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-11-19 14:41               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 15:27                 ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-11-19 15:29                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 16:03           ` Joost Kremers
2023-11-19 16:59             ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 18:29               ` Joost Kremers
2023-11-19 18:35                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 12:50         ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 13:08           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 13:52             ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 14:45               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-20 15:35                 ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-20 16:37                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-21  8:33                     ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-21  8:39                       ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 13:59             ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 14:49               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 14:53                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 12:04       ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-11-19 18:10       ` Tomas Hlavaty
2023-11-25  4:45         ` Stefan Monnier via Emacs development discussions.
2023-11-28 15:31           ` João Távora
2023-11-28 15:55             ` Stefan Monnier
2023-11-19 21:36       ` Alan Mackenzie
2023-11-21 16:14         ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 16:08     ` Axel Forsman
2023-11-21 15:53     ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-23  2:58     ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-23  7:02       ` Tomas Hlavaty
2023-11-26  3:14         ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-27 17:07           ` Tomas Hlavaty
2023-11-27 17:59             ` Yuri Khan
2023-11-28 14:25               ` Tomas Hlavaty
2023-11-23  8:58       ` Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.
2023-11-26  3:14         ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-24  3:08       ` Daniel Semyonov
2023-11-24  3:26         ` Daniel Semyonov
2023-11-25  2:59         ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-25  5:11       ` Stefan Monnier via Emacs development discussions.
2023-11-27  3:11         ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-27  3:11         ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-27 18:13           ` Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.
2023-11-27 18:49             ` Yuri Khan
2023-11-27 23:12               ` Stefan Monnier
2023-11-29  3:41               ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-29  3:40             ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-16 18:11 ` Instead of pcase Emanuel Berg
2023-11-16 19:26   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-16 22:16     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-17  7:30       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-17  8:09         ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-17 12:16           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-18  6:26             ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-18  7:21               ` Po Lu
2023-11-18  7:41                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-16 18:22 ` Jim Porter
2023-11-16 22:55   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-17  5:36   ` Po Lu
2023-11-19 11:48     ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 12:50       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 14:05         ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 14:41           ` Po Lu
2023-11-19 14:44             ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 14:52           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 14:58             ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 15:14               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 18:04                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 18:30                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 18:51                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 19:49                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-21  2:43               ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-19 14:14         ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 15:09           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-20 14:52             ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 14:29       ` Po Lu
2023-11-20 15:20         ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-20 15:29         ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-20 23:43           ` Po Lu
2023-11-21  1:09             ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-21  1:49               ` Po Lu
2023-11-21  1:59                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-21  4:04                   ` Po Lu
2023-11-21 11:27                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-21 11:49                       ` Po Lu
2023-11-20 23:45           ` Jose E. Marchesi
2023-11-20 23:54             ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-21  2:01             ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-22  2:59               ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-22  3:29                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-22 11:58                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-24  3:38                   ` Richard Stallman

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