From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Yuan Fu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2020 14:22:26 -0400 Message-ID: <8777DE8A-9C66-4916-8EF1-F1AB4E42ECA2@gmail.com> References: <20200906133719.cu6yaldvenxubcqq.ref@Ergus> <20200906133719.cu6yaldvenxubcqq@Ergus> <83lfhnnew7.fsf@gnu.org> <20200906163418.3p2wuygb4osm76wa@Ergus> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="22916"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Ergus Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 06 20:23:05 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kEzJh-0005tW-2l for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 06 Sep 2020 20:23:05 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36268 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kEzJg-0003C0-4r for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 06 Sep 2020 14:23:04 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58954) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kEzJ8-0002my-N2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 06 Sep 2020 14:22:30 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-qt1-x82f.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::82f]:44051) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kEzJ6-00036u-TW; Sun, 06 Sep 2020 14:22:30 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-qt1-x82f.google.com with SMTP id e7so8452393qtj.11; Sun, 06 Sep 2020 11:22:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=tW/b4dYYaYC50cy2jtkPqKjs7HKFd4PuKBX8D3mDz1Q=; b=LZWeMAdpuLxRmlI9Oaj0Y9xEyyRR0oCPSyvJLZA8at1zXTt+bVOVmiX76/5py0wZUA bUIW+GzlU381GniurTeg2KW+Tcj/BlTDlInqkXHPRjfMbakn74fwtQjTKUAXX50EbWrT hpJ0sR0PNSnNqy0m7LH4Fk/IMDmVUBSOWD3/A9/khg9nxuedvnLWeeOnRJaTfJ1nCE9w PCAUksMmAA02D4odnwZxPPXRbdeTWiL8GCypZQliJItgh3cICk3mbabqlJ4sQGmyn/fe ByBPCswMB3phYxJxY9yA9cnoN5s1QD/txiG1g8xbsP1hoiApj239fRLHjjLQd9eA1qVj Uosg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=tW/b4dYYaYC50cy2jtkPqKjs7HKFd4PuKBX8D3mDz1Q=; b=Op9vEATolbzOQQO3g231Wvxh8nNlEm8g1Uu82fwQb3cDg33jvaRviQfpP86zIkBg7i hPpBJBXp+6RRqhyrdzzX2CMlWzVeeFRTZpSd4e4Jf7DU8mokxMy7wepNXDzv6e1yMgWo 0ZKgXhedkeWWOfX3C6DYORFsXLxpCWQGj8kj1kNhLFFodytu51jk5Q3cz8Z+CjEywPVo EimSLqw6Xf9Psa8FU1M73CwjmeGetnFvpV/XXxTH5HxTDn9FVQfmlTaLJFHiQLud0Byn p47HB5xyZ4DMof5nyyCiz2VAK0b501ZusILgwud66TEhR/60Q1nCHeJ7dwtInovy+Dje fmcg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533CuPCRQjzG+ry+mjsvN3mrY09Ea/yo56LAtUgXlxB85vvlpCfO 2Pu8oz5AJzV06LeUVq9oS9I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwLchVqTJe5bZT8ZAniceoEpgfk/zY/8YvnZGmwVFCWri+giDtIhpsGpBVEYANdp8aI0AmkDg== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:1787:: with SMTP id o7mr17446290qtj.322.1599416547467; Sun, 06 Sep 2020 11:22:27 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from ?IPv6:2601:98a:4200:9210:2cd2:1b8b:4611:fef6? ([2601:98a:4200:9210:2cd2:1b8b:4611:fef6]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u55sm10041978qtu.42.2020.09.06.11.22.26 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 06 Sep 2020 11:22:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20200906163418.3p2wuygb4osm76wa@Ergus> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::82f; envelope-from=casouri@gmail.com; helo=mail-qt1-x82f.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254579 Archived-At: >=20 > I just mentioned some default changes that will not require almost any > extra implementation and functionalities that have already been there > for many years. I am just thinking in the first impression for new > users... >=20 > The reaction has been as expected but I needed to mention them just to > see which ones could or couldn't be at least considered. So I don't > waste time with the others. >=20 > Sorry but I can't understand why "old" users, that can write lisp = lines > easily to their configs, can't understand that for new users (and > younger ones) those lines sometimes takes hours or days (mainly = because > they don't know what/where/how to look for, and lisp is not so > popular or familiar these days). And that the first impression when = they > open emacs is like going back to 1998.=20 > I know that ideally the users should read the documentation, learn = lisp, > pass the tutorial and so on... but in real live if the first = impression > is not good we just scare away them before they discover the power of > emacs. Mainly because there are many alternatives easier to start = with. >=20 > It is just my opinion. > I won't insist on this anymore. >=20 > Best, > Ergus. >=20 AFAICT, those changes wouldn=E2=80=99t have enough support (if any) = here. Instead, what about compiling a separate Emacs that has all these = =E2=80=9Cgood modern features/options=E2=80=9D enabled? We can even go = further and compile a shiny and truly out-of-the-box Emacs. The problem = is, of course, people with the skill don=E2=80=99t care about this, and = people need/want this don=E2=80=99t have the skill. Yuan