From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alex Schroeder Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Will default key bindings spell the death of Emacs? Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 12:32:06 +0200 Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: <8765nsk9nd.fsf@gnu.org> References: <3ED67422.7060305@math.ku.dk> <20030529214728.GA24984@gnu.org> <3ED68408.4080700@math.ku.dk> <20030529224526.GA5943@gnu.org> <3ED6FFAA.3040004@math.ku.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1054291398 911 80.91.224.249 (30 May 2003 10:43:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 10:43:18 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Fri May 30 12:43:14 2003 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19LhKs-0000Bz-00 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 12:42:10 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 19LhZz-0002xR-00 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 12:57:47 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19LhLs-0004ZU-1x for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Fri, 30 May 2003 06:43:12 -0400 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.20) id 19LhKz-0004Mf-Oz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 30 May 2003 06:42:17 -0400 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.20) id 19LhKo-0004E8-PU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 30 May 2003 06:42:09 -0400 Original-Received: from isp247n.hispeed.ch ([62.2.95.247] helo=smtp.hispeed.ch) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19LhBA-0001Oz-S5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 30 May 2003 06:32:09 -0400 Original-Received: from confusibombus.gnu.org (dclient217-162-238-127.hispeed.ch [217.162.238.127])h4UAW68r024687; Fri, 30 May 2003 12:32:06 +0200 Original-To: Lars Hansen Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwCAYAAABXAvmHAAACkElEQVR42s1a0bLsIAgzjv// y7kPd9pVKxKVdk6fzux2C4EAwR6QZBpcQEopIf3Fq3a52Lfh0Mjjk99zcWYBwA2ihEen9jVxfAf/ u0+Y2HQwNoVw4Dx34trRV6NSjiLPmfPt77jwiBxB/3PnZ3B2AGxzHnGu0wcBwAIAyQwZGvQhiFcy YLOFQcSB/MS82n3ec37vykNqRFTX9rVWR2U5+pZNIggll0CUOQN9BDdm1LfBmcZxIEqjL6r2JU/D galaB7Zg4jlY2ulnIx9OR4iMRl38CAFyKaA8jAxE7lNn650VKMULZ/54crqn0YQCJGQliebXkFIK hwqmGm28cgsSjz/hzRCMneQEwMjVoH3gWTtMPgIslJUV5uIluvUEkyzU+gUGQO62e9NuSdZCzNOM fDPC87iCqfE9gHinsIrSL16TPBfrYIeHzqKU90a50jCh54EcrgAUFo5ibzvebgr/I66USQ0CspQp IVSoBQK3WswDDIndIraHxoglqOjM1d044PQvu1NY0EHtqQR/XwJ+PeCs0x2dSlApZVw4MPER23PD 7JekoHxrqTRod/2Gx5nhx5dfAJhqPt7tDMIZxNN/7lOIaparPn7ZQ88drlORC2eLWXowxIq4gHTh VN1BSmsHoxYAbPWDTuGQuuecS+aYQUYpfr0YqPQOuuUk5tApK077+2xfOYP+XyWEIwPcE49lvT9N y2+wU2KylGGp4yxlALcm6fSlmgk62yfSsfNunDl5d6W91MBUoZw679YAJoMMkhijuXdFOL+khaL2 s+g3zy4APQuQvSc/BNAYnkl6E8ivYtEHJXa1dihE3zgnKMdNgN8DiIwgA17NykUMvFDQ+LALvXXI BuBLAHv/DvBmc/0HzR03PqXmLcQAAAAASUVORK5CYII= In-Reply-To: <3ED6FFAA.3040004@math.ku.dk> (Lars Hansen's message of "Fri, 30 May 2003 08:52:26 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.1003 (Gnus v5.10.3) Emacs/21.3.50 (gnu/linux) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b5 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:14476 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:14476 Lars Hansen writes: > That is a good point. But I believe people have so different ways to > work that there is no single style that is the best for everybody. But then again, usability expert Jeff Raskin claims that whenever there is something to customize, it means that the developpers didn't know what design decision was the best and left it up to the users (who aren't usability experts, either). Obviously Emacs is the mother-of-customizable-things, so we are failing badly according to Raskin's standards. But we at least try to make the *defaults* usable according to our own standards. We might not be the best usability experts out there, but we all use Emacs day in and day out. Therefore, if you really want to change the keybindings -- go right ahead. But Emacs is complex software with tons of files, and some of them maintained by people not part of emacs-devel, and so resolving new inconsistencies, documenting new keybindings, etc. is going to be a very very difficult and boring job. If you look at CUA mode, you will see how much hard work went into it. There are good news, too, however: For certain specific tasks, people have already documented how to do it, or written the code to do it -- eg. pc-selection-mode. The thing to be aware of, however, is that most people on this list think it is a low-priority problem and they have other more pressing things on their mind. So if you really want it, you will have to do it. Alex. -- http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/alex.pl