From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Karl Fogel Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Bug tracking (was: new *Help* argument highlighting) Date: 12 Jun 2004 13:26:25 -0500 Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: <87659wd44u.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> References: <20040512103042.FB57.JMBARRANQUERO@wke.es> <20040611122633.5F88.JMBARRANQUERO@wke.es> Reply-To: kfogel@red-bean.com NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1087087438 32305 80.91.224.253 (13 Jun 2004 00:43:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 00:43:58 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Sun Jun 13 02:43:48 2004 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BZJ6C-00012w-00 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 2004 02:43:48 +0200 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BZJ6B-0008KN-00 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 2004 02:43:47 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1BZJ70-0000RE-95 for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Sat, 12 Jun 2004 20:44:38 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1BZJ6x-0000Qt-Vq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Jun 2004 20:44:36 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1BZJ6x-0000QQ-8j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Jun 2004 20:44:35 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1BZJ6x-0000QN-4v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Jun 2004 20:44:35 -0400 Original-Received: from [207.115.63.78] (helo=pimout6-ext.prodigy.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1BZJ5y-0003mB-Vc; Sat, 12 Jun 2004 20:43:35 -0400 Original-Received: from floss.red-bean.com (adsl-65-42-95-31.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net [65.42.95.31]) by pimout6-ext.prodigy.net (8.12.10 milter /8.12.10) with ESMTP id i5D0hVRB059966; Sat, 12 Jun 2004 20:43:33 -0400 Original-Received: from kfogel by floss.red-bean.com with local (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 1BZDCz-0003sn-00; Sat, 12 Jun 2004 13:26:25 -0500 Original-To: Juanma Barranquero Emacs: more than just a Lisp interpreter, a text editor as well! In-Reply-To: <20040611122633.5F88.JMBARRANQUERO@wke.es> Original-Lines: 77 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:24899 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:24899 Juanma Barranquero writes: > I said a while back that IMHO we should be a more structured project, in > the sense of having a plan for releases, with tentative dates, perhaps > even a release manager, etc. Someone (Eli, I think, but I'm speaking > from memory) opposed on the grounds that it costs human resources that > we don't have. But the Emacs project has 87 registered developers; > that's 33% more than Subversion, for example, and they seem to be doing > well on that regard (though, to be fair, they have four or five people > paid to work almost full-time on Subversion). A data point: The Subversion issue tracker database is almost entirely maintained by unpaid volunteers now. The salaried developers use it too, of course, but not in any fundamentally different way than the unpaid developers, and not proportionally more often. (There are actually two or three paid developers, by the way, not four or five). It's very common for experienced volunteers to help new reporters file bugs. For example, a longtime volunteer will often 1. See a newbie's post on the mailing list, 2. Solicit more details, 3. Instruct the newbie in how to file a useful bug report, 4. Watch to confirm that the newbie did so, 5. Add some developer-directed comments to the issue if appropriate, 6. Possibly fix it, if they are a developer themselves. This process is self-perpetuating. January's newbie becomes June's experienced volunteer. This thread (about whether to have a bug tracker for Emacs) is quite long, and I can't participate in detail due to time constraints, unfortunately. So I'll just say I'm very much in favor of having such a system -- and yes, to track individual bugs, not just large-scale future plans. In the long run, it would save humans much headache, even though there would be an initial cost to setting it up. RMS wrote: > I won't assume it is really good for other projects. > I don't know whether they have thought about it carefully. > Techies are often attracted to using the highest tech available > whether it is better or not. > > It is clear that using a special "issue tracker" would be extra work > for many people, and it would be hard for me to use. I understand your skepticism, and in fact harbored similar reservations when we started Subversion. However, we did think about it and discuss it quite carefully, both then and now. We have no doubt now that it's actually helping us. It serves a real need; otherwise we would have dispensed with it long ago. Regarding your comment that using an issue tracker would be hard for you: note that it is not necessary that every developer use the bug tracker, or use it in the same way, for it to be useful to the project as a whole. (I think over time you would find yourself using it too, though, as using it is often more efficient than avoiding it.) There is no particular need for this thread to come to a definite conclusion. If someone sets up a good tracker and starts using it, others will follow. However, it would be nice if the tracker were at Savannah and advertised from the project pages in some obvious way; and especially nice if 'M-x report-emacs-bug' and other "official" sources named it as the canonical database for Emacs bugs. I wish I had time to set such a thing up, but don't right now. I hope someone else does. FWIW, the Subversion bug tracker is a [non-portably customized] version of IssueZilla. It's entirely web-based. Lack of a good email interface is one of its serious flaws, though it hasn't been a fatal flaw for us. I have no strong opinion about which bug tracker Emacs should use (except that it be Free of course). Just the subset of features common to all bug trackers would already be useful for Emacs... -Karl