From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs contributions, C and Lisp Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 14:17:37 +0100 Message-ID: <8761mzu6fi.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <52FD9F1D.50205@yandex.ru> <83mwhucg1h.fsf@gnu.org> <878ute589i.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83d2iqc84m.fsf@gnu.org> <87wqgxkcr9.fsf@yandex.ru> <834n41db0d.fsf@gnu.org> <52FE2985.4070703@yandex.ru> <831tz5daes.fsf@gnu.org> <8738jlohd6.fsf@yandex.ru> <83txc1bl83.fsf@gnu.org> <5300189A.9090208@yandex.ru> <83wqgv9fbj.fsf@gnu.org> <20140216180712.236069f6@forcix.jorgenschaefer.de> <83sirj9cyp.fsf@gnu.org> <20140217203145.71a849f7@forcix.jorgenschaefer.de> <837g8t8ouc.fsf@gnu.org> <20140219080524.25689b6b@forcix.jorgenschaefer.de> <87fvnfqyfv.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1395926255 11693 80.91.229.3 (27 Mar 2014 13:17:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 13:17:35 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Michal Nazarewicz Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Mar 27 14:17:46 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1WTABl-0007l5-EI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 14:17:45 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53570 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WTABl-000420-0Q for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 09:17:45 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:58057) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WTABg-000411-IB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 09:17:41 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WTABf-0004lG-3G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 09:17:40 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:50761) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WTABe-0004ke-OU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 09:17:39 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57937 helo=lola) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WTABd-0000sj-Ih; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 09:17:37 -0400 Original-Received: by lola (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 32460E048F; Thu, 27 Mar 2014 14:17:37 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: (Michal Nazarewicz's message of "Thu, 27 Mar 2014 13:55:06 +0100") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.4.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:171029 Archived-At: Michal Nazarewicz writes: > On Wed, Feb 19 2014, David Kastrup wrote: >> With regard to copyright assignments, you pretend that it is some >> magic ritual of initiation. There is nobody who'd be more glad than >> the FSF if this kind of paperwork was without merit and unneeded. > > There are people who would argue that this kind of paperwork is in > fact unneeded. I admit it has merit, and I understand why lawyers > want it, but it's not at all clear that it is worth creating this > burden. > > SFC for example runs its GPL Compliance Project for Linux Developers > representing just a small fraction of Linux copyright holders. Which means that a large ratio of Linux code can be misappropriated into proprietary products without anybody bothering to complain. In Germany, basically _all_ Linux license violations are prosecuted based on the netfilter code, and if I am not mistaken, that code is slated to be replaced by a different implementation anyway. > Even GNU does not require copyright assignment to all its projects. So? > I may be wrong in my assessment, I'm not a lawyer after all, The FSF is in constant contact with lawyers, and the GPL is a legal tool. > but I bet *majority* of developers, myself included, see CA as an > unneeded burden. The copyright assignment is not for the sake of the developers (well, it _does_ free them of the responsibility to go after copyright violations themselves). > We can only guess how many people dropped their patches after reading > CA is required. Sure. > And individuals are not even the hardest part. I became a maintainer > of auto-dim-other-buffers.el[1]. I would love to have it in GNU ELPA, > but frankly, I won't even bother asking other contributors of to the > project to sign a CA, and it's not even a complicated case -- there > are only two other people involved -- again we can only guess how many > projects are not contributed to Emacs because they were started > outside of GNU Emacs and now people don't want to deal with CAs. "not contributed to Emacs" is a red herring since you can always distribute them yourself. They are not distributed along with the core Emacs, and the core Emacs is copyrighted by the FSF: it's the principal editor and IDE of the GNU project. > And we did not even start with the fact that some people oppose CAs as > a matter of principle. > > [1] https://github.com/mina86/auto-dim-other-buffers.el And other people oppose the GPL as a matter of principle, and most people opposing a copyright assignment would not dream of going after violations of their copyright themselves, thus implicitly opposing the GPL as well. A GPL that is not enforced is pointless; you could be using the MIT license in the first place. The FSF retains several copyright-assigned projects on which it will make sure the GPL has teeth. So in essence you are asking the FSF to stop being the FSF. You are not the first one to do so, and you will not be the last one. Do you really think that after 25 years of the GPL's use in FSF-governed projects you are bringing something new to the table here? -- David Kastrup