From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Lisp's future Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2014 12:26:45 +0900 Message-ID: <8761ftrki2.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <54193A70.9020901@member.fsf.org> <87d2ahm3nw.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <871tqneyvl.fsf@netris.org> <87d2a54t1m.fsf@yeeloong.lan> <83lhotme1e.fsf@gnu.org> <871tql17uw.fsf@yeeloong.lan> <838uktm9gw.fsf@gnu.org> <87h9zgarvp.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87mw97rjwm.fsf@yeeloong.lan> <8761fvn8io.fsf@yeeloong.lan> <87egujahw6.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87wq8bd8w2.fsf@netris.org> <87y4sr909s.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87ppe3lbkr.fsf@yeeloong.lan> <87oatn8dqz.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87eguili20.fsf@yeeloong.lan> <87siiy7e0p.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1412825264 20107 80.91.229.3 (9 Oct 2014 03:27:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2014 03:27:44 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Richard Stallman , Mark H Weaver , dmantipov@yandex.ru, emacs-devel@gnu.org, handa@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, Andreas Schwab , Eli Zaretskii To: David Kastrup Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Oct 09 05:27:35 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Xc4Nt-00045o-FZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 09 Oct 2014 05:27:21 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39693 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xc4Nt-0003SQ-1U for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 08 Oct 2014 23:27:21 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:42655) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xc4Nj-0003S3-9e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Oct 2014 23:27:18 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xc4Nb-0001sC-RD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Oct 2014 23:27:11 -0400 Original-Received: from shako.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.161]:41751) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xc4NM-0001gS-49; Wed, 08 Oct 2014 23:26:48 -0400 Original-Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by shako.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ECC41C3A0D; Thu, 9 Oct 2014 12:26:45 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 828D01A2888; Thu, 9 Oct 2014 12:26:45 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: <87siiy7e0p.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta34) "kale" acf1c26e3019 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 130.158.97.161 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:175159 Archived-At: David Kastrup writes: > I've been at the receiving end of the "reproducing the input bytes > faithfully is not a priority" mindframe, and it is costly. XEmacs is irrelevant -- it simply doesn't possess the technology. It *is* a goal for us, I've tried, and that code is *hairy*, I failed. So all your examples of pain you've personally suffered are irrelevant. Nobody here is advocating "not a priority." Engineering faithful roundtripping isn't a priority for Emacs only because it's already possible and robust. I'm assuming that will continue to be the case in a Guile-based Emacs. (If not, sure, that needs to be fixed. Nobody is saying otherwise, and I've made that explicit several times.) So the only question is "what is the default." Please stop trying to make this into anything else. You advocate a default that is convenient for the app programmer, who saves one project-wide "sed -i -e s/utf-8/utf-8-with-rawbytes/ *" to achieve the same degree of insecurity and reproducibility his app would have with the default you prefer. We advocate a default that is safer for the user, who may lose their life savings if a filter for 419 phish fails because a character is encoded with "long" UTF-8, and fails to match the regexp which expects the character and not rawbytes. I don't know that there are any Emacs MUA users who have ever fallen for a phishing message, but I assure you that I personally have observed "long" UTF-8 in messages that are otherwise duplicates of correctly encoded spams. Those bastards don't miss a trick.