From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: New maintainer Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2015 09:36:30 +0200 Message-ID: <87612lzs01.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <560CCEBA.9080607@online.de> <874miapdhs.fsf@openmailbox.org> <8737xuuw2y.fsf@rabkins.net> <87lhbmkrle.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87si5r22qh.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <8737xrweel.fsf@googlemail.com> <87r3lazla7.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87bnce1ko7.fsf@googlemail.com> <87mvvyz5a8.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87si5qi7zi.fsf@googlemail.com> <87io6mz0en.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83612l26ss.fsf@gnu.org> <87egh9zvqq.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83zizxztpq.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1444030611 23623 80.91.229.3 (5 Oct 2015 07:36:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 07:36:51 +0000 (UTC) Cc: jens.k.loewe@googlemail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Oct 05 09:36:42 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Zj0K6-0004QJ-2u for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 05 Oct 2015 09:36:38 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44645 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zj0K5-0003tS-Co for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 05 Oct 2015 03:36:37 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45788) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zj0K1-0003tI-SM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Oct 2015 03:36:35 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zj0K0-0005xe-FA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Oct 2015 03:36:33 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:42063) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zj0K0-0005xU-Bs; Mon, 05 Oct 2015 03:36:32 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55882 helo=lola) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1Zj0Jz-0005GL-ND; Mon, 05 Oct 2015 03:36:32 -0400 Original-Received: by lola (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0477EDF386; Mon, 5 Oct 2015 09:36:31 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <83zizxztpq.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 05 Oct 2015 09:59:29 +0300") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:190924 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: David Kastrup >> Cc: jens.k.loewe@googlemail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org >> Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2015 08:15:41 +0200 >> >> Eli Zaretskii writes: >> >> >> From: David Kastrup >> >> Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2015 01:20:16 +0200 >> >> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org >> >> >> >> You might have missed it, but Windows 10 goes ahead nevertheless. So >> >> far testers have not been able to find any settings that would not send >> >> a continuous string of data related to keypresses to Microsoft servers. >> > >> > Google did, among its first few hits: >> > >> > http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/science-technology/603524/Windows-10-Microsoft-Key-Logger-Record-Privacy >> > http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/windows-10-doesnt-offer-much-privacy-by-default-heres-how-to-fix-it/ >> >> Ah, but turning those settings off does not really suffice. >> >> > > Which includes further advice on how to turn the other stuff off. Have we been reading the same article? "We've asked Microsoft if there is any way to disable this additional communication or information about what its purpose is." ... "if Web searching and Cortana are disabled, we suspect that the inference that most people would make is that searching the Start menu wouldn't hit the Internet at all. But it does. The traffic could be innocuous, but the inclusion of a machine ID gives it a suspicious appearance." > Look, this particular point of yours is simply invalid: for any > problem encountered on Windows, there are always solutions and/or > workarounds that work. It sometimes takes time to discover them > (Windows 10 was released only 2.5 months ago), but eventually they do > surface. The enormously large number of people using Windows and the > basic user desire to solve problems they bump into, coupled with the > Internet and the efficiency of the search engines, makes any such > malware-like features easily bypassed for those who don't want them. Do you or don't you agree that there is a point for an operating system respecting the user's choices, privacy and control? Because we are talking here about the need of a prospective Emacs manager to heed the policies designed to ensuring that such a system remains available in future and cannot be watered down easily. Even while the availability of such systems depressingly appears to have very little impact on users' choices, it's the GNU mission to make sure that for those few who actually care, the choice remains. With Emacs being a core component of GNU, the maintainer needs to accept that he is not independently responsible for Emacs but also for GNU. > But trying to make it easier by representing the issues as > black-and-white is not TRT, IME, and it will always fail given an > intelligent enough opponent who knows her ground. You (not you > personally, David) can even be accused in trying to con your audience > by false statements, which then might have far-reaching effect on our > argumentation in general. I wish. Unfortunately, the world is moving away from shades of grey and rather thoroughly into contrasts increasingly indistinguishable from black-and-white. The idea that systems like GNU were needed to keep the big players in check by offering a free alternative has mostly failed. It does not help that MacOSX is these days built based on a free but non-copylefted platform. And even the Android universe built around a GPLed kernel is at best a thoroughly mixed blessing and its effective level of freedom is much more determined by the marketing department of Google than by the workers on the free software base they are employing. Oh, and Google, in the course of changing its company name has also chosen to drop its motto "do no evil" in favor of the fuzzier and less absolute "do the right thing". That is the general situation where the FSF with the GNU project tries to carve out and maintain a harbor of freedom and Emacs is one of the few core products and resources it has to work with, and so it is important that the maintainer will respect the aspects of his work concerned with that. It's not like they push themselves in the foreground that often. In my opinion, _particularly_ if you care about recommending and working with Windows and MacOSX, you should be concerned about a solid counterweight that those systems may be held against in their current downward spiral. That decline can only be slowed if people start caring about their rights and privacy, and a viable alternative is the most important asset for that. -- David Kastrup