From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?B?R8O2a3R1xJ8=?= Kayaalp Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 21:48:18 +0300 Message-ID: <875z8ortot.fsf@gkayaalp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="5595"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.2.0; emacs 28.0.50 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 08 20:49:36 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kFigR-0001LY-TP for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 20:49:35 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47248 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFigQ-0001qY-Vn for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 14:49:34 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54556) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFifM-00010m-HW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 14:48:28 -0400 Original-Received: from relay7-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.200]:59333) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFifI-0002T2-KL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 14:48:28 -0400 X-Originating-IP: 31.206.236.86 Original-Received: from localhost (unknown [31.206.236.86]) (Authenticated sender: self@gkayaalp.com) by relay7-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 51B292000A for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 18:48:19 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: 6936F2AB-0968-42B5-9914-56538608A42C@gmail.com Received-SPF: none client-ip=217.70.183.200; envelope-from=self@gkayaalp.com; helo=relay7-d.mail.gandi.net X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/08 14:48:21 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254798 Archived-At: > I think everybody would agree on attracting more people to use > Emacs=E2=80=94that means more blogs and help, more contributor, etc. And > people agree that Emacs isn=E2=80=99t as beginner-friendly as it could be= . The > problem is what to improve, and how. Not necessarily. Personally, I don=E2=80=99t see much benefit in trying to appeal users that have no background in coding whatsoever, and users who wouldn=E2=80=99t really benefit from what Emacs has to offer. > As the first step, we should collect real experiences from real > beginners: someone starts to use Emacs just recently (e.g., less than > one year). The major problem is that someone who fiddled with Emacs now and couldn=E2=80=99t make use of it may think differently when a couple years l= ater they have some knowledge of programming (not necessarily professionally) and some experience with other tools. Anecdotally, I=E2=80=99ve picked up and quit Emacs multiple times before I decided to stay with it. And it=E2=80=99s been more than 6 years now that = I=E2=80=99m using it for the good part of my computing. What was puzzling and weird to me back then is useful and essential to me now. What I mean is, what is good for newcomers, who are not guaranteed to stay, can be irrelevant, not so good, or even off-putting to actual users of this package of software. Emacs is a power tool, and like all power tools, requires two preconditions to be useful: 1) the user should *need* the tool, and 2) the user should be willing to put in the time to learn the tool. And a good power tool is designed with user who need and use them the most in mind. IDK. IMHO, we shouldn=E2=80=99t break stuff in Emacs itself, and maybe prom= ote distros for people that want a more "modern" experience instead. They don=E2=80=99t have the backwards compatibility baggage of Emacs so they wil= l do it better than Emacs core nevertheless. -- =C4=B0. G=C3=B6ktu=C4=9F Kayaalp / @cadadr / pgp: 024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC 40EB 465C D949 B101 2427