From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ricardo Wurmus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:57:18 +0200 Message-ID: <875z8l6e01.fsf@elephly.net> References: <87y2lkb6kb.fsf@gmail.com> <9A4FA038-CCFD-45DF-8B57-E348AFF951D9@gmail.com> <87sgbsb0eb.fsf@gmail.com> <87h7s6c31d.fsf@gmail.com> <87een96fpw.fsf@elephly.net> <87363pvpl0.fsf@gkayaalp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="28921"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.4.13; emacs 27.1 Cc: Gregory Heytings , Yuan Fu , emacs-devel@gnu.org, Stefan Monnier , TEC To: =?utf-8?B?R8O2a3R1xJ8=?= Kayaalp Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 10 13:56:48 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kGLC4-0007Oe-34 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:56:48 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33664 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGLC3-0000lw-3U for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 07:56:47 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40828) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGLBX-0000KX-Cm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 07:56:15 -0400 Original-Received: from sender4-of-o51.zoho.com ([136.143.188.51]:21138) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGLBV-0005Ie-25 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 07:56:15 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1599738968; cv=none; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; b=LH6kXmbwCJJW/aEab+klaxMO26X6ApUN8RQ+rVXxQAasWe7oyjhPA4zuDPkko3oNHl+ZfxTEXcoS3lR9r4NPezERSZdAOQU2nWUvPJV6ygFul8ub8Zs2w0+4rfJUJ3NUbinysBQ/jpoqdJfqY8K7XIZDuuWVQRnzbPabtDZG1cU= ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; t=1599738968; h=Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Date:From:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Message-ID:References:Subject:To; bh=lkbGYyagxZ9Zch+4oP94H7A2CLrwpCWzZrbEXd3UAJA=; b=c+ugRekNlZ9mthwqE9+m4Gyb165NulqbtSYomXSryWRLAJOXYXCfXYykzmKjN2grRhtv4Pp5lRr3DeYS/BwEH5ZrXFA5TcRbbA+HMiJ5bvAcRCjZHjt0M31BMq51W0xhnlDpMhSBMmiPr8vGzoPfG8zzk8pxjrvMxGawnr+Mo30= ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.zohomail.com; dkim=pass header.i=elephly.net; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=rekado@elephly.net; dmarc=pass header.from= header.from= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1599738968; s=zoho; d=elephly.net; i=rekado@elephly.net; h=References:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-reply-to:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; bh=lkbGYyagxZ9Zch+4oP94H7A2CLrwpCWzZrbEXd3UAJA=; b=M7Wvsb0zou8bLHHVY20mSciA9GQPnyxUBiIGYP1YDmIsHztJS04mfxs5wCsW69MR 5rw4immsjZhI++4xZwudlEKRFLl4eImBMauYpgiK2YMfULDeboscds/C4UtqgWQYP2s BzRwkz9+dOlnLKK6adJb27BgVdS86t8PkkwDxpzY= Original-Received: from localhost (p54ad4af6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.173.74.246]) by mx.zohomail.com with SMTPS id 1599738965285696.5955947026697; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 04:56:05 -0700 (PDT) In-reply-to: <87363pvpl0.fsf@gkayaalp.com> X-URL: https://elephly.net X-PGP-Key: https://elephly.net/rekado.pubkey X-PGP-Fingerprint: BCA6 89B6 3655 3801 C3C6 2150 197A 5888 235F ACAC X-ZohoMailClient: External Received-SPF: pass client-ip=136.143.188.51; envelope-from=rekado@elephly.net; helo=sender4-of-o51.zoho.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/10 06:37:33 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254976 Archived-At: G=C3=B6ktu=C4=9F Kayaalp writes: > On 2020-09-10 14:20 +03, Ricardo Wurmus wrote: >> At that point their initial enthusiasm has all but disappeared and they >> glance over to their colleagues who use Rstudio or Atom (in 2017) or >> that proprietary editor Sublime. Everything seems so easy and >> approachable and just as extensible. They see their colleague use Git >> from within Rstudio and wonder if they=E2=80=99d ever get to that point = if they >> will first have to configure Emacs to do all the basic things first. > > IMO we should draw a line between attracting users into a detrimental > experience for them and making Emacs more approachable. Rstudio is a > _great_ fundamental project, and if the rest of my life wasn=E2=80=99t in= side > Emacs, I=E2=80=99d be using it these days as I=E2=80=99m studying R. Org= mode is better > than Rmarkdown in certain respects, but if it=E2=80=99s just =E2=80=98do = statistics in a > nice environment=E2=80=99, I=E2=80=99d definitely recommend Rstudio over = Emacs (or > anything else, for that matter). There=E2=80=99s no way Emacs will ever = be as > good at that particular task set, especially if that=E2=80=99s the only t= ask set > one will need it for. In my work environment R is essential, but it=E2=80=99s not nearly the only thing people have to use regularly. A lot of work is done in Python and with Jupyter, and RStudio is almost useless for those tasks. There=E2=80= =99s also a lot of command line drudgery that could be done more conveniently with =E2=80=9CM-x shell=E2=80=9D (editing the output of a tool directly), e= tc. So there is a palpable desire for better tools to avoid the constant context switching, but for every task people end up on the hill of a local maximum, unable to reach something better (presumably Emacs), because it doesn=E2=80=99t seem worth the effort to climb that mountain if = you first need to descend into the valley of inscrutable configuration. --=20 Ricardo