From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Narendra Joshi Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 13:48:10 +0100 Message-ID: <875z5129yt.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87lfdyaevd.fsf@red-bean.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="7129"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: kfogel@red-bean.com, Christopher Dimech , rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: James Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 16 13:49:15 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kpWEz-0001hg-Ln for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 13:49:13 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44364 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpWEy-0005Rr-Nu for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 07:49:12 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50852) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpWE9-00052f-UW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 07:48:22 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-ej1-x631.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::631]:45511) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpWE7-00033e-Gm; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 07:48:21 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-ej1-x631.google.com with SMTP id qw4so32466518ejb.12; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 04:48:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KdNtVTdGH5k+ew1ON43mid6CiRVVgd26tl0H29XHRDM=; b=iOy6PG5fqQkiKJvmudEXxhPzLamux9AAwJIjVtuJc0PZFlAb+smEv7ykCxpize3zZs kwKf+H89DaeYVThFi8LLZyPtmLEc5dLsj/30S5r5PdxbX9RNlxo12rc0bcPnVdWO1erc jqFUTc1Do4M8Q4YsmvKuyBs4TQHdsy6H1WuoestwyGjm56TyfNyx7MP8A2UOExZYcopC ozDnsgBHYiO0tf2imUvbG3cPy8ztaOf01wh4GPYWhGAwN5Uxc++GnmGG5kcZ0f8s2ysw Q0DxVXPCCiPpuO11+gf/jctcw48GXgw1z1QENeNwYzmKCLy3EHPzH4VMpoX/cJtJnxFV GrCA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KdNtVTdGH5k+ew1ON43mid6CiRVVgd26tl0H29XHRDM=; b=ty0kDpRvZOedVKRMzaxXqugtDC3peYJw1Cf8113DSdUbjg8HntkoZWZCXQvzBIv7RV dK6vJEKhS3PZIP5dnQFK+Qz0KBbrVuf4/UJ7VoAEZEm7uQxnUU6oTJ2ST0XFHMDAVq0U +4zzh7G0CK+1NQxRcfvtXIs5T0vPKt5DOC14DmT8clZrykGBZE3AXfx7IiGwxE/JSdj1 9ju1q837cN1T8kxCNxpxxgkBmJOxFqKm3z8MMiW2P44w2R981aovpRbS0ADAoo2t5zpV aH0wh/2PY+i7Tsg/waCppC1O9oLQ5PmLnX8ES2H7/NwVN8qd2TxWdS7pBGJIwu1HZDnI cVlA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5325QDF2w6hRIPSHO9bcr/Wkzbi0+vAn7qN+8tIsJymR7QHzF9CM sbq2bzl7opRixNGd9yQnlfXXAlzv/Y8skwggzg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzwSRc0kfSkHJZ4Kr3TBOEmjTp35poefw7yCKpBcblGuE5kO5N81+wcZW+vOUlwohBL17MocQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:8587:: with SMTP id v7mr29944535ejx.381.1608122893330; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 04:48:13 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from vicarie ([2a02:8109:b640:2344::220c]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l12sm1343575ejk.10.2020.12.16.04.48.11 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 16 Dec 2020 04:48:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: (James Lu's message of "Tue, 15 Dec 2020 21:33:53 -0500") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::631; envelope-from=narendraj9@gmail.com; helo=mail-ej1-x631.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:260981 Archived-At: James Lu writes: > I would however subscribe to an "Emacs Support" service for a monthly > fee. > > I am short of funds at the moment, so I could only pay $5/month. But > I'm sure > other non-students could afford $10/mo or $15/mo for access to support > on a powerful editor. > > Start out small: Have more people than easily sustainable[0]. Then, > slowly > automate things by writing documentation and possibly interactive > tutorials. > Gather the best. > > Thereafter, the service could be run as a SaaSS program that asks you > questions and returns the correct tutorial, potentially creating a > revenue > stream for whoever makes it or GNU/FSF. > > [0]: http://paulgraham.com/ds.html Interesting. Can you share an example task that you would like to have accomplished/implemented as part of this support service?=20 Best regards,=20 > On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 5:56 PM Christopher Dimech > wrote: > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 11:22 PM > > From: "Karl Fogel" > > To: "James Lu" > > Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > Subject: Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode) > > > > On 15 Dec 2020, James Lu wrote: > > >I spent months of my life researching todo app. > > > > > >Every single todo list app would approximate some person's > ideal todo > > >list app, but every person complained it was missing one > feature they > > >needed. > > >Emacs org-mode solves this problem. > > > > > >Either an app had too few buttons or too many buttons. > > >Emacs org-mode solves this problem. > > > > > >Let's stop messing with code. > > > > > >Let's start hacking. > > > > > >Clever hacking is doing the impossible. > > >Let's start writing GFDL guides and selling them. > > >Let's start selling support plans. > > >Let's start making Emacs org-mode a hot trend. > > >Let's make the website RMS suggested where you can ask > questions on > > >org-mode, and see public answers. > > > > > >Who's with me? > >=20 > > Org Mode is very powerful, and some of the ideas you list above > could be successful. I encourage you to try them! But I think > asking "Who's with me?" is not a route to making them happen. As > Eli Zaretskii replied to an earlier post of yours back in > September [1]: > >=20 > > > Nothing in Emacs gets done because someone asks a "why not > do this > > > and that?" question. We don't have a means to tell some > employee to > > > do this and that job. For a job to get done, someone > motivated > > > enough should sit down and do it. The best candidate for > that is > > > whoever raises the issue in the first place, but of course > not > > > everyone who proposes something can actually implement it. > > There have been times where discussions led to significant > improvements, but mostly=20 > concerned peripheral discussions where many could benefit - e.g., > texinfo output > mathematical expressions using Mathjax. For user specific things, > one can get help > implementing an idea. The person raising the problem is almost > always more productive > when that same person works on it. Otherwise it would be a gamble > that can easily > lead to disappointments.=20=20=20=20=20 > > > Best regards, > > -Karl > >=20 > > [1] > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-09/msg02110.html >=20=20=20=20=20 > >=20 > > > > > I have little experience with Emacs=E2=80=93 I can't really implement the= se on my > own. > > I would however subscribe to an "Emacs Support" service for a monthly fee. > > I am short of funds at the moment, so I could only pay $5/month. But I'm > sure > other non-students could afford $10/mo or $15/mo for access to support > on a powerful editor. > > Start out small: Have more people than easily sustainable[0]. Then, slowly > automate things by writing documentation and possibly interactive tutoria= ls. > Gather the best. > > Thereafter, the service could be run as a SaaSS program that asks you > questions and returns the correct tutorial, potentially creating a revenue > stream for whoever makes it or GNU/FSF. > > [0]: http://paulgraham.com/ds.html > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 5:56 PM Christopher Dimech wrote: > >> >> > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 11:22 PM >> > From: "Karl Fogel" >> > To: "James Lu" >> > Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org >> > Subject: Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode) >> > >> > On 15 Dec 2020, James Lu wrote: >> > >I spent months of my life researching todo app. >> > > >> > >Every single todo list app would approximate some person's ideal todo >> > >list app, but every person complained it was missing one feature they >> > >needed. >> > >Emacs org-mode solves this problem. >> > > >> > >Either an app had too few buttons or too many buttons. >> > >Emacs org-mode solves this problem. >> > > >> > >Let's stop messing with code. >> > > >> > >Let's start hacking. >> > > >> > >Clever hacking is doing the impossible. >> > >Let's start writing GFDL guides and selling them. >> > >Let's start selling support plans. >> > >Let's start making Emacs org-mode a hot trend. >> > >Let's make the website RMS suggested where you can ask questions on >> > >org-mode, and see public answers. >> > > >> > >Who's with me? >> > >> > Org Mode is very powerful, and some of the ideas you list above could = be >> successful. I encourage you to try them! But I think asking "Who's with >> me?" is not a route to making them happen. As Eli Zaretskii replied to = an >> earlier post of yours back in September [1]: >> > >> > > Nothing in Emacs gets done because someone asks a "why not do this >> > > and that?" question. We don't have a means to tell some employee = to >> > > do this and that job. For a job to get done, someone motivated >> > > enough should sit down and do it. The best candidate for that is >> > > whoever raises the issue in the first place, but of course not >> > > everyone who proposes something can actually implement it. >> >> There have been times where discussions led to significant improvements, >> but mostly >> concerned peripheral discussions where many could benefit - e.g., texinfo >> output >> mathematical expressions using Mathjax. For user specific things, one c= an >> get help >> implementing an idea. The person raising the problem is almost always >> more productive >> when that same person works on it. Otherwise it would be a gamble that >> can easily >> lead to disappointments. >> >> > Best regards, >> > -Karl >> > >> > [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-09/msg02110.ht= ml> > >> > >> --=20 Narendra Joshi