Draw and Scribble Notes in GNU Emacs (Schematics)

Draw and Scribble Notes in GNU Emacs (Schematics)

[Anand Tamariya]

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Here's my next iteration on "Draw and Scribble Notes in GNU Emacs" for
drawing simple schematics. Here are the new features:
- Copy shapes
- Move shapes
- Group / ungroup shapes
- Toggle grid
- Horizontal and vertical guides for movement
- Snap to grid

*Details*:
https://lifeofpenguin.blogspot.com/2021/08/scribble-notes-in-gnu-emacs.html
*Video*: https://youtu.be/cWylaLAodng

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Re: Draw and Scribble Notes in GNU Emacs (Schematics)

[Uwe Brauer]

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>>> "AT" == Anand Tamariya <atamariya@gmail.com> writes:

> Here's my next iteration on "Draw and Scribble Notes in GNU Emacs" for
> drawing simple schematics. Here are the new features:
> - Copy shapes
> - Move shapes
> - Group / ungroup shapes
> - Toggle grid
> - Horizontal and vertical guides for movement
> - Snap to grid

Out of curiosity, on which OS is this supposed to work?? 

Since a couple of years I use an iPad Pro, with note taking apps, so
having an emacs with that capability would be great, however emacs on an
iPad, I am not sure RMS would approve or any other maintainer.

Regards

Uwe Brauer 

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Re: Draw and Scribble Notes in GNU Emacs (Schematics)

[Po Lu]

Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> writes:

> Out of curiosity, on which OS is this supposed to work?? 
>
> Since a couple of years I use an iPad Pro, with note taking apps, so
> having an emacs with that capability would be great, however emacs on an
> iPad, I am not sure RMS would approve or any other maintainer.

AFAIK Apple locks down all of their i-devices so they can only run
proprietary software they explictly approve of, so I don't think Emacs
can run on those devices anyway.

It would be nice for this statement to be wrong though.

Re: Draw and Scribble Notes in GNU Emacs (Schematics)

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Since a couple of years I use an iPad Pro, with note taking apps, so
  > having an emacs with that capability would be great,

I think it would be great to give Emacs the capability for note-taking,
if that means we would have note-taking capability on the GNU system.

                                                         however emacs on an
  > iPad, I am not sure RMS would approve or any other maintainer.

We're in favor of porting Emacs to run on any system, if you as a
volunteer want to do it.

But what does this have to do with note-taking in Emacs?
Doesn't your note-taking support work on all systems?


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Draw and Scribble Notes in GNU Emacs (Schematics)

[Uwe Brauer]

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>>> "RS" == Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

>> Since a couple of years I use an iPad Pro, with note taking apps, so
>> having an emacs with that capability would be great,

> I think it would be great to give Emacs the capability for note-taking,
> if that means we would have note-taking capability on the GNU system.


>> iPad, I am not sure RMS would approve or any other maintainer.

> We're in favor of porting Emacs to run on any system, if you as a
> volunteer want to do it.

Aha! That was not clear to me!

The iOS system (contrary to MaCOs) is a very closed system. There are
jailbreaks (hacks with allow you to run, I think free software (I am
using the word free in more liberal sense, since it is quite some time
ago I did a jailbreak and I cannot remember the specific nature of the
software but it was not apple controlled)

> But what does this have to do with note-taking in Emacs?
> Doesn't your note-taking support work on all systems?

I'd rather say it has everything to do with it. How are we supposed to perform
note-taking? (For several years I have been interested in this subject
and I have tested quite a bit of devices). 

There are the  following possibilities 

    1. You use the mouse. This however is not serious, at least I am
       unable to scribble with the mouse.

    2. You take what is called a passive tablet with a pen. Wacom is the
       most known producer of these sort of devices. Last time I tried
       them out, they did not run on GNU/Linux. That might have been
       changed, but in any case this is also not for serious note
       taking, you can write a word or two but anything else like long
       sentences is quite a ordeal. Your handwriting gets distorted, and
       most importantly you cannot rest you palms on the screen.

    3. A device in which Bluetooth controls the pen. There are the
       following devices (in order of quality)

       a. The iPad

       b. The MS Windows Surface

       c. Android devices

       d. The Lenovo yoga series running MS Windows (these I have not tested)

That is why I said it is important to know whether GNU Emacs runs on any
of these devices. The MS Windows Surface (or the Lenovo) might be a candidate, but when
I tested it, it did not have GNU Emacs installed, so maybe somebody on
the list owns one and could tell us.

regards





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Re: Draw and Scribble Notes in GNU Emacs (Schematics)

[Joost Kremers]

On Sun, Oct 03 2021, Uwe Brauer wrote:
> [[S/MIME Signed Part:Undecided]]
>>>> "RS" == Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> I'd rather say it has everything to do with it. How are we supposed to perform
> note-taking? (For several years I have been interested in this subject
> and I have tested quite a bit of devices). 
>
> There are the  following possibilities 
>
>     1. You use the mouse. This however is not serious, at least I am
>        unable to scribble with the mouse.

Looking at the videos that Anand put on his site, the mouse is only used for
drawing. Text can be typed, either as part of the svg image or simply plain text
into the buffer.

Also, even though you can draw free-hand, there are convenience functions in his
package for drawing various geometric shapes.

>     2. You take what is called a passive tablet with a pen. Wacom is the
>        most known producer of these sort of devices. Last time I tried
>        them out, they did not run on GNU/Linux.

I owned one a long time ago and it was supported. My current distro even has a
section for Wacom tablets in the settings panel. But I agree, they're not useful
for writing longer text. I tried and failed. :-)


-- 
Joost Kremers
Life has its moments

Re: Draw and Scribble Notes in GNU Emacs (Schematics)

[Anand Tamariya]

> But what does this have to do with note-taking in Emacs?
> Doesn't your note-taking support work on all systems?

You are right. This has no OS specific code. So it should work on all
systems where SVG in Emacs is supported.

Re: Draw and Scribble Notes in GNU Emacs (Schematics)

[Uwe Brauer]

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>>> "AT" == Anand Tamariya <atamariya@gmail.com> writes:

>> But what does this have to do with note-taking in Emacs?
>> Doesn't your note-taking support work on all systems?

> You are right. This has no OS specific code. So it should work on all
> systems where SVG in Emacs is supported.

Ok, but then it is not really a notes-taking support, at least not as
the word is used right now, especially after the corona lockdown where a
lot of people used Bluetooth based pens for taking long notes, if it
were pen+paper. Note taking apps are programs such as notablity
good-notes, zoom-notes etc etc on the Ipad and to some extend on
android.

That implementation of yours, as nice as it is, is a different beast
then. I think it is worth to clarify that.

May I suggest «draw notes».

Regards





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Re: Draw and Scribble Notes in GNU Emacs (Schematics)

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > You are right. This has no OS specific code. So it should work on all
  > systems where SVG in Emacs is supported.

That sounds great.

In what form do you get input from the drawing device?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Draw and Scribble Notes in GNU Emacs (Schematics)

[Anand Tamariya]

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>   > You are right. This has no OS specific code. So it should work on all
>   > systems where SVG in Emacs is supported.
>
> That sounds great.
>
> In what form do you get input from the drawing device?
>
My drawing device is my laptop with a trackpad. A stylus will work equally
well as long as it's exposed as a mouse event.

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Re: Draw and Scribble Notes in GNU Emacs (Schematics)

[Hugo Thunnissen]

Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> writes:

>
>     3. A device in which Bluetooth controls the pen. There are the
>        following devices (in order of quality)
>
>        a. The iPad
>
>        b. The MS Windows Surface
>
>        c. Android devices
>
>        d. The Lenovo yoga series running MS Windows (these I have not tested)
>

What about the recently announced PineNote by Pine64? I personally own a
similar device called remarkable2 which is great for note-taking but
requires proprietary firmware to operate its framebuffer. The PineNote
won't have this problem, so it might be relatively easy to get emacs to
run on it. Maybe emacs, with some modifications, could even be the main
UI for an e-ink tablet like this? I think that the text-based nature of
emacs would lend itself well for an e-ink screen. Imagine reading emails
on a sunny terrace without a glaring screen and jotting down notes in
the window next to your gnus article!

-Hugo

Re: Draw and Scribble Notes in GNU Emacs (Schematics)

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > That implementation of yours, as nice as it is, is a different beast
  > then. I think it is worth to clarify that.

Can you describe the job it actually does?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Draw and Scribble Notes in GNU Emacs (Schematics)

[Uwe Brauer]

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>>> "AT" == Anand Tamariya <atamariya@gmail.com> writes:

>> > You are right. This has no OS specific code. So it should work on all
>> > systems where SVG in Emacs is supported.
>> 
>> That sounds great.
>> 
>> In what form do you get input from the drawing device?
>> 
> My drawing device is my laptop with a trackpad. A stylus will work equally
> well as long as it's exposed as a mouse event.

As I said before, that means: it does not work on any device using a
Bluetooth operating pen?

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Re: Draw and Scribble Notes in GNU Emacs (Schematics)

[Uwe Brauer]

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> Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> writes:

> What about the recently announced PineNote by Pine64? I personally own a
> similar device called remarkable2 which is great for note-taking but
> requires proprietary firmware to operate its framebuffer. The PineNote
> won't have this problem, so it might be relatively easy to get emacs to
> run on it. Maybe emacs, with some modifications, could even be the main
> UI for an e-ink tablet like this? I think that the text-based nature of
> emacs would lend itself well for an e-ink screen. Imagine reading emails
> on a sunny terrace without a glaring screen and jotting down notes in
> the window next to your gnus article!

The point is, does this device have a Bluetooth based pen? Only these
ones allow you really to write in a decent way.

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Re: Draw and Scribble Notes in GNU Emacs (Schematics)

[Uwe Brauer]

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>>> "RS" == Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

>> That implementation of yours, as nice as it is, is a different beast
>> then. I think it is worth to clarify that.

> Can you describe the job it actually does?

I think the author is more qualified to tell you, but from what I have
seen, it works on any device in which the mouse or passive pen does the
«writing».

However to get a decent writing experience (and we are talking about
«note taking» here) works, currently, only with a device that operates a
Bluetooth based pen. The main reason is that allows you to rest your
palm on the screen.

So in fact any device with such a feature would give a more or
less satisfactory handwriting experience (it is more complicated, but
resting the palm on the screen is a necessary condition for
handwriting), but currently only Bluetooth based devices have this
feature.

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Re: Draw and Scribble Notes in GNU Emacs (Schematics)

[Stefan Monnier]

>>> That implementation of yours, as nice as it is, is a different beast
>>> then. I think it is worth to clarify that.
>> Can you describe the job it actually does?
> I think the author is more qualified to tell you, but from what I have
> seen, it works on any device in which the mouse or passive pen does the
> «writing».

AFAIK the code just uses `mouse-movement` events and so it will work
with any device that can be exposed this way.

> However to get a decent writing experience (and we are talking about
> «note taking» here) works, currently, only with a device that operates a
> Bluetooth based pen.  The main reason is that allows you to rest your
> palm on the screen.

Is there any reason to think that such a device would not generate
those same `mouse-movement` events?
[ IIUC this is hypothetical since there is currently no hardware that
  works the way you describe and that also runs Emacs.  ]


        Stefan

Re: Draw and Scribble Notes in GNU Emacs (Schematics)

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

Thanks for explaining.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Draw and Scribble Notes in GNU Emacs (Schematics)

[Anand Tamariya]

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On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 6:40 AM Corwin Brust <corwin@bru.st> wrote:

> Outstanding!
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 12:02 AM Anand Tamariya <atamariya@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Corwin,
> > Thanks for your interest. I am open to contribution from anyone who has
> signed FSF copyright assignment papers.
>
> I do indeed have copyright assignment on file!
>
> > One major reason, why my code is not in a separate package is because it
> needs a patch in svg.el to work properly (see
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2021-09/msg00798.html).
> Hope you have some idea on how to work around this.
>
> I'll happily look into this.
>
> As an aside- did you intend to reply off-list?
>
> Welcome to CC the list back in upon your reply (if any) given omitting
> devel was unintentional.  I haven't done so in case it wasn't an
> accident :)
>
Your original message was off-list which I simply replied to. But I guess
this conversation belongs in the list so that other interested members
might join in too - Daniel (https://github.com/dalanicolai/sketch-mode)
being one of them.

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Re: Draw and Scribble Notes in GNU Emacs (Schematics)

[Anand Tamariya]

> As I said before, that means: it does not work on any device using a
> Bluetooth operating pen?

Why do you assume so? Do you know of any such hardware which doesn't
generate such mouse movement events? That will help me provide you an
appropriate answer.

Re: Draw and Scribble Notes in GNU Emacs (Schematics)

[Corwin Brust]

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resending as i'd failed to copy the list in my original reply

On Sat, Oct 9, 2021, 11:53 Corwin Brust <corwin@bru.st> wrote:

> Hi Anand!
>
> Very impressive functionality you are working on!  I have a couple of
> questions, both rather in the same vein -- potential improvements in
> the form of contributions from others to this work.
>
> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 12:09 AM Anand Tamariya <atamariya@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Here's my next iteration on "Draw and Scribble Notes in GNU Emacs" for
> drawing simple schematics. Here are the new features:
> > - Copy shapes
> > - Move shapes
> > - Group / ungroup shapes
> > - Toggle grid
> > - Horizontal and vertical guides for movement
> > - Snap to grid
> >
> > Details:
> https://lifeofpenguin.blogspot.com/2021/08/scribble-notes-in-gnu-emacs.html
> > Video: https://youtu.be/cWylaLAodng
>
> 1. I see that you are working from within a modified version of svg.el
> (file seems to have the boiler-plan header comments saying it is a GNU
> source, etc.).   Assuming I haven't misunderstood, would you be
> interested in receiving back a new version of your work that separates
> things into a stand-alone package?
>
> 2. Similarly, at last year's Emacsconf I shared a demo of
> dm-sketch[1].  This is part of dungeon-mode[2] an Emacs-based RPG
> engine this is my work-in-progress project for several decades. Sketch
> for Dungeon is rather different from what (I believe) you have created
> (so far).  Key examples:
>
> (a) we use a "snap-to-grid" approach, and
> (b) recursive tile-sets for placement ("Stamp tool") of complex shapes, and
> (c) all "data" (SVG elements and SVG Path fragments, etc. composing
> the tiles) are intended to be stored within org-mode tables.
>
> These support key usability and accessibility goals of our project
> which you can read about at the project link (#2, below).
>
> I would, at least in potential, be interested in reworking dm-sketch
> (and thus, dm-draw and dm-table which provides the key "primitives")
> to be dependant on your work, potentially pushing some of the
> functionality I need for (e.g.) tile-placement up toward your library.
>   This assumes you are planning, as I assume in the first question, to
> (eventually) make your package separate from the core svg.el
>
> Would you be interested in seeing (for example) tile-set and
> data-via-org-tables capabilities merged into what you are working on?
>
> Thanks again for all your work in this area!
>
> [1 ] dm-sketch demo from EmacsConff 2020 -
>
> https://mirror.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/emacsconf/2020/emacsconf-2020--28-welcome-to-the-dungeon--sketch--erik-elmshauser-corwin-brust.webm
>
> [2] dungeon-mode is RPG engine and sample game for GNU Emacs (WIP) ;
> see: http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/dungeon
>

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Re: Draw and Scribble Notes in GNU Emacs (Schematics)

[Jib Style]

Hi, I recently found a way to run Emacs in jailed iOS:

The iOS application iSH (https://ish.app/) provides a Linux-like shell,
which in turn can install and run Emacs. However, no mouse support. I
suppose Apple allows this app as it is sufficiently sandboxed.

Re: Draw and Scribble Notes in GNU Emacs (Schematics)

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Hi, I recently found a way to run Emacs in jailed iOS:

Bravo for finding a workaround for the jail.

  > The iOS application iSH (https://ish.app/) provides a Linux-like shell,
  > which in turn can install and run Emacs. However, no mouse support. I
  > suppose Apple allows this app as it is sufficiently sandboxed.

If you write about this, please mention that Apple's practice of
restricting installation of the user's choice of application program
software is an extreme example of malicious software, designed to
mistreat the user.  Nowadays, if a program is nonfree, it is likely to
be malware in various ways -- you can refer to
https://gnu.org/malware/ for hundreds of examples -- which is an additional
reason why we should put an end to nonfree software.

Most people have never thought along this line; we should take
advantage of every usable opportunity to expose them to the ideas.

One correction

  > The iOS application iSH (https://ish.app/) provides a Linux-like shell,

No shell can be "Linux-like", because Linux is a kernel.  A shell and
a kernel have little in common, except both being programs.  Perhaps
you meant it is a Unix-style shell, or a GNU-style shell.

See https://gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html and
https://gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html, plus the history in
https://gnu.org/gnu/the-gnu-project.html.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Draw and Scribble Notes in GNU Emacs (Schematics)

[Leonard Lausen]

> > As I said before, that means: it does not work on any device using a
> > Bluetooth operating pen?
> 
> Why do you assume so? Do you know of any such hardware which doesn't
> generate such mouse movement events? That will help me provide you an
> appropriate answer.

These devices typically come with an integration to libinput, which
exposes the touch events. Those events provide more information than
mouse movement (distance, pressure, tilt), and they do not necessarily
trigger mouse movement. [1] documents the integration in libinput, which
for example relies on libwacom for the passive electromagnetic resonance
(not Bluetooth) pen integration. In summary, such hardware can generate
mouse movement, but only taking generated mouse movement into account
would be restrictive.

As a side note on available hardware, [2] provides an example of running
Emacs on a reMarkable tablet (which normally uses EMR pen for input,
though of course relies on an external keyboard for above emacs
example). reMarkable tablet is an open device based on GNU/Linux and
allows it's owner to ssh into the device and perform modifications, such
as getting emacs to run..

[1]: https://wayland.freedesktop.org/libinput/doc/latest/tablet-support.html
[2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/RemarkableTablet/comments/iis4fo/emacs_on_remarkable/