From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Adding use-package to core Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2022 20:19:34 +0800 Message-ID: <875yfhiv8p.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87fsemjs7v.fsf@yahoo.com> <87edu5izi9.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="39713"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: "xenodasein--- viaEmacs development discussions." , eliz@gnu.org To: xenodasein@tutanota.de Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Nov 15 02:08:27 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oukR8-000A3V-CQ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Nov 2022 02:08:26 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ouioY-0000WN-8F; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 18:24:30 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ouifZ-0002R9-3v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 18:15:19 -0500 Original-Received: from sonic314-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.189.146]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ouYRO-0002JY-79 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 07:19:56 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1668428390; bh=QMc7AHiZBK1SVEDaR4SeK6q+63L8LdXEam7eONT3RJM=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=ZcrrglAzl9kuzrcc9/6nbgTqhdOEb7mAkAc7ZPauEmdxSGl66y/HPoSqPdniMhCkcJC2Lr6VT+84oeJPr1ZcSkt4Lfhshs1mDCFMaSf5E33UwJyr1nwMs30KeoHO3486tgZnH3J19P98bH8m6+QKjNPExxSbm/Ic7bdEWxDOHVXam39fAEjImDshrjoTB/8VTZeyNplELTJ258fRltNuAq4B2jEGv45vekqS+FGHcaDZqDi0G7SkzsLldqHcjsCbqfq3us1TrQAoqjPqc5m8Bp4Im5airlhGTzFwzYHl5+/H3hPakaeJAgIF3ZKuLtv28f3Q4d6PZJUlcLjtY+Ftyw== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1668428390; bh=kNv3HEkaG+/kKojcirXF7aD0oRiE2Vl56rjnp2COaOM=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=mU/WREf89HELz+JtAPru2KigwTBYD6buHGfOEEdI0BIsYhk9A7dig7PuxNp5YrOOmgrpDMVwHrVa4rju/uvOFRFSxnJLD/1WcEnOevpPdam27Tyv/1KgEaeIKH7PlX9MhEMdY+rYO7EVg9eloLpr0k9SzS7H62O07DsNvFqHWQ1IMknoV9Q7NMcAi3h0q+SOK5jjYw3xKMF8pWVY2AmPkgsn0FjkkshCZGzHKqCKKaKb5/Pp1N16j0Vose9RzLYOxvVsyIEoCLJc10Ww/+CsXZ7E2mRPT0AtwX7y6ewBu1Oay/ofrWqUaO6ICOZ0xYToqMTXj5JtSyKdpqw4dFe5Eg== X-YMail-OSG: XQMPljEVM1m17aIEpgX80r362ehjGl2J8XOahfzbbTuijCjQK3qkoX.Kkq9Z1PK e_jOHaIAiiXK8mnVNdwwukE.hUMDUrHF8s8PpeI2FCd9pdl7rNPOdpLoCg6s5UyGsvGVdHgDyCnR Dkop1UAchGO9J5okItfpAnqnmj_10CcB210f1vOCdj8K4SPPYMAQZXmAjB0vSkRV2qgvp52qG3dJ uSVOETE8WF8vlua8hJIX5BTLtq7kzsaGTC7p9DaBoWUigK8C0N.Cw72CSGM4jPaR8wZwNLAQK1.P vopsx.Hw5neBEPjuL166Fk6iolWW_8ge_.DzuizNMQVdXyFZ.1SukV5iG1eCXkfOZujR5SIOTY5d z4gHpujyWe0gk37oTp_PT_ypoRDwdoaHQWlD2x8TIeRADM8bu3pw7CKmHzzCE_LNhCx4NhCi_Jt7 St2.28QTHJvsUGJwtVfPmtieyI71qFOdqYCluHrEl52Q57oxD1UCVvBCp7fqwpBF5U.Z4BV6VvpC ..jcRAG9FEFdsiZVjmI_AKBxW8i0a0Azp4TIZ_wdiA5bBn6FFJtbc_vyfiT8sqr_7BRwldryuSsT xNQ0wasY5LEpd6v6xW3TqC4aqwNpaTFcp0iuIK9zeWBpxFXht2vA6XMEInRj1CeyhVtZY3cDDs8Z vXnZr9.JsedcqQ3qKtaBLzLIWr1ulGPdF0f4b8IjoTXW3sl8JGic7SmSDOOnZRd6_wS0ee0vbpoX wDJ6Ng12MRi.8MzVxj8DC0IIoS5t0WmI4LXEcThUVrntALi3OQ2pO3afoCyBUp897UYGE2tuEAbH Q7miE65s0jFMjqdECam7cEdvy_MjTrB5xWfgGkErkR X-Sonic-MF: Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic314.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 12:19:50 +0000 Original-Received: by hermes--production-sg3-6c8895b545-26lc9 (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID e808247e885d6b83bcba5e0870fb5998; Mon, 14 Nov 2022 12:19:43 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: (xenodasein@tutanota.de's message of "Mon, 14 Nov 2022 12:52:50 +0100 (CET)") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20826 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.189.146; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic314-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:299809 Archived-At: xenodasein@tutanota.de writes: > Practically all the programming languages or programs we support keep > evolving yet our code is finished? Surely you can see how this > contradicts the whole point of software lifecycle wisdom? I can maybe see how it contradicts consumerist wisdom, but not any other wisdom. > The example is the commit history, and the number of people rushing in > to help maintain old Emacs code they didn't originally write. That is not a specific example, or even a useful one. > Crucial point here being Michael A. actually does the hard work and > TRAMP is not one of the orphans. And Michael is the TRAMP maintainer, who asked that TRAMP be included in Emacs. Just like John. > That is why keeping the core as simple and easy to maintain as possible > is very important. And why would adding use-package negatively affect that? I think "core" is basically *.c, and maybe subr.el and the likes of cl-lib.el, and everything under lisp/emacs-lisp/. Anyone can feel free to correct me if that's wrong. > My whole complaint is that this is not happening, so the trend here > should be reducing lines of code, but opposite is happening.=C2=A0 This > not a good direction. LOC is a terrible metric for almost anything. > By their interdependence increasing over time. All code being in the > same place and the nature of free software without strict rules, seem to > lead to this result, I believe it is easy to observe from Emacs source. That only happens when we think it is okay for a specific package. When we think it is not, then it does not happen, and as a result TRAMP still works on Emacs 25.1. OTOH, it is a Good Thing for other code in Emacs 29 or 30 to be able to use use-package, as doing so will lead to improvements in both pieces of code. > Quoting from some other mail I've sense to list: > "Same reason emacs-devel is not responsible for every single line of > Elisp code on the Internet?=C2=A0 External packages seem to get more love > from their developers.=C2=A0 If not, something new replaces them, people > migrate And that is a Bad Thing, which causes trouble to countless numbers of people. It is why I gave up on almost all packages from ELPA, after trying to use and like package management for several years. > Technically it is not easier but also how much harder it is to install > them is so minuscule that the maintenance burden it causes it is not > worth it. I've never seen the maintenance burden of something increase simply due to the location of a folder changing.