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* Emacs website, Lisp, and other
@ 2024-08-04 22:27 Jeremy Bryant
  2024-08-04 22:55 ` Emanuel Berg
  2024-08-05 11:56 ` Emacs website, Lisp, and other Eli Zaretskii
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 85+ messages in thread
From: Jeremy Bryant @ 2024-08-04 22:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-devel, Eli Zaretskii, Richard Stallman

Reviewing the Emacs website, and previous discussions on this list below
(admittedly not recent, but still relevant).  It seems important to add
some text on Lisp which is not currently there, as per ideas of RMS and
Eli summarised below.

Where is the repo for the Emacs website?
What do people think?



Previous discussions on the subject:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-12/msg00356.html
RMS:
"
> We don't want to set Lisp up against other languages.
> We do want to get across what it offers that benefits
> an editor and environment such as Emacs.

Yes we do, to some extent.  The Emacs web site should say this:

Lisp is the most powerful and elegant of programming languages.  If
you want to see how powerful and elegant a programming language can
be, you need to learn Lisp.  It will give you standard for measuring
other languages.
"

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-12/msg00335.html
RMS:
"
Calling Emacs Lisp "python-like" is derogatory to Emacs Lisp.
Python has some of the characteristics that make Lisp superior,
but not all of them.  

Lisp is the most elegant and powerful programming language.  That is
what we should say.  In Lisp, programs are structured data and it is
easy to write other Lisp programs to operate on them.

Programmers that don't know Lisp do not realize what is missing in
other prograamming languages.
"

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-12/msg00200.html
Eli:
"
I believe the same could be true with other aspects.  E.g., is it such
a preposterous assumption that someone might be interested in coding
in Lisp, instead of all the ad-hoc extension languages invented by
other editors?
"



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* Re: 10 problems with Elisp, part 10
@ 2024-08-06 17:38 Abraham S.A.H. via Emacs development discussions.
  2024-08-07  7:44 ` Emanuel Berg
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 85+ messages in thread
From: Abraham S.A.H. via Emacs development discussions. @ 2024-08-06 17:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Emacs Devel

> Yes, Python is incomparable to Emacs Lisp and would probably
win quite even against the collective Lisp world, I'm afraid.

Wins only in being popular.  It can win against most languages in that regard and I doubt if it's only for technical reasons.

> if we care about Lisp we should
do what we can to make Elisp more competitive altho we should
focus on getting better, and not compare us to other languages
as we are way too far behind in many areas, I'm afraid.

Sure.  But should we consider Python as a technically better language?

Of course it has lessons to be learnt and advantages to be studied and adopted.  But should one try to make Elisp more like JS or PHP or Python just because they have more programmers?  Isn't it because of some other industrial causes that they are popular?

And are you sure that what you mentioned in number 10 is Emacs' weakness and not its advntage?

--
Best Regards,



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread
* 10 problems with Elisp, part 10
@ 2024-08-07 18:57 Abraham S.A.H. via Emacs development discussions.
  2024-08-07 20:46 ` Sebastián Monía
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 85+ messages in thread
From: Abraham S.A.H. via Emacs development discussions. @ 2024-08-07 18:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Emacs Devel

> I didn't say that. You know why? Because I didn't mean it.
> It doesn't take much experience to do cool things fast
> in Python, it is a fact.

I agree to disagree, Emanuel!  Sorry, but I do not think “Python is
a generally better programming language”.  Perhaps Python is very good
in some aspects but not in general, and I know Python better than any
other language.

I think that Python is popular in  the sense of “there are more Python
programmers than most other languages”.   And I think “In the software
industry, technical  merits of a  programming language do not  make it
popular.”!  Java and C and JS  didn't become popular only due to their
technical merits.

> Emacs-w3m is from Japan <3

As I said, perhaps only in Japan.

However, as an Asian, I know  no university in my country or neighbour
countries teaching  Lisp.  Just a  few pages  of history and  no more.
But they teach C, Java and Python.

> No. Just think, remove this line in Lisp
>
> some-item))

Why should  I?  Why should I  use `kill-line`?  Why not  removing that
item with `kill-sexp`?

Do you know Python and Lisp and acknowledge their difference?

In Python,  one removes a  statement by  removing its content  and the
following newline character; because  in Python statements are started
and  terminated with  newlines  (a character)  (unless continued  with
a backslash or separated with a semicolon! Yeah...)

In Lisp, one  removes statements by removing sexps.   Because in Lisp,
statements  are   started  and  terminated  with   another  character,
parenthesis!  (Only parenthesis, no exceptions)

For  removing  a  statement  in   Python,  use  `kill-line`  (C-k)  or
`kill-whole-line`.  For removing a  statement in Lisp, use `kill-sexp`
(C-M-k).

You  are using  your  own  presumptions to  reason  out, and  convince
others.  Your presumptions are not mine,  and your facts are not facts
to me.

Python is not a mainly better language.  It's your own presumption.
I learnt  it because I  have to.  Others learn  it too, for  many only
because they also have to.  Lisp is not widespread in universities any
more.  It's your own presumption.  Perhaps in US, perhaps in the past.

Please, do  not declare  your opinions as  Accepted Facts.   At least,
they are not established facts to many other developers.

I think  that I'm out  of this discussion.   I don’t have  any benefit
here. 

-- 
Best Regards,




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 85+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2024-08-15 16:03 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 85+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2024-08-04 22:27 Emacs website, Lisp, and other Jeremy Bryant
2024-08-04 22:55 ` Emanuel Berg
2024-08-05  4:29   ` Emanuel Berg
2024-08-05  9:23   ` Christopher Dimech
2024-08-05 10:43     ` Emanuel Berg
2024-08-05 11:37       ` divya
2024-08-05 11:56         ` Christopher Dimech
2024-08-05 12:33         ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-08-05 11:45       ` Christopher Dimech
2024-08-05 12:56       ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2024-08-05 13:16         ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2024-08-05 14:46           ` Christopher Dimech
2024-08-05 21:28             ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2024-08-05 14:55         ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-08-05 12:28     ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-08-05 16:27       ` 10 problems with Elisp, part 10 (was: Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other) Emanuel Berg
2024-08-05 16:38         ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-08-05 17:03           ` Emanuel Berg
2024-08-05 18:32             ` 10 problems with Elisp, part 10 Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2024-08-05 20:20               ` Emanuel Berg
2024-08-06  7:14                 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2024-08-06  7:21                   ` Org mode API (was: 10 problems with Elisp, part 10) Ihor Radchenko
2024-08-06  8:23                     ` Org mode API Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2024-08-10 16:55                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2024-08-06 11:54                   ` 10 problems with Elisp, part 10 Eli Zaretskii
2024-08-08  2:01                     ` Richard Stallman
2024-08-09 22:39                       ` Emanuel Berg
2024-08-13  1:28                         ` Richard Stallman
2024-08-09 22:46                     ` Emanuel Berg
2024-08-10  5:41                       ` Emanuel Berg
2024-08-10  6:09                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-08-13  1:28                       ` Richard Stallman
2024-08-05 18:58             ` 10 problems with Elisp, part 10 (was: Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other) Christopher Dimech
2024-08-05 19:30               ` 10 problems with Elisp, part 10 Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2024-08-05 20:02                 ` Christopher Dimech
2024-08-08  2:01                   ` Richard Stallman
2024-08-06  2:28                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-08-05 17:13         ` 10 problems with Elisp, part 10 (was: Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other) Yuri Khan
2024-08-06  6:39         ` Emanuel Berg
2024-08-06 11:16         ` Richard Stallman
2024-08-06 22:08           ` Emanuel Berg
2024-08-05 11:56 ` Emacs website, Lisp, and other Eli Zaretskii
2024-08-06 19:09   ` Jeremy Bryant
2024-08-06 19:50     ` Christopher Dimech
2024-08-06 20:35       ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2024-08-06 22:10         ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2024-08-06 22:48           ` Christopher Dimech
2024-08-06 23:09           ` Drew Adams
2024-08-06 23:21             ` Christopher Dimech
2024-08-07  1:09               ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2024-08-06 22:26         ` Christopher Dimech
2024-08-07  5:45         ` Emanuel Berg
2024-08-15  3:53           ` Madhu
2024-08-15  5:50             ` Emanuel Berg
2024-08-15  9:17               ` Madhu
2024-08-15  9:57                 ` Emanuel Berg
2024-08-15  6:17             ` Emanuel Berg
2024-08-15  7:10               ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-08-15  8:06               ` Emanuel Berg
2024-08-15  9:27                 ` Emanuel Berg
2024-08-15 16:03                   ` Emanuel Berg
2024-08-07 11:13     ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-08-07 12:03       ` Andrea Corallo
2024-08-07 12:16       ` Christopher Dimech
2024-08-08  2:01         ` Richard Stallman
2024-08-08  6:51           ` Joel Reicher
2024-08-07 12:31     ` Christopher Dimech
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2024-08-06 17:38 10 problems with Elisp, part 10 Abraham S.A.H. via Emacs development discussions.
2024-08-07  7:44 ` Emanuel Berg
2024-08-07 11:30   ` Christopher Dimech
2024-08-07 18:57 Abraham S.A.H. via Emacs development discussions.
2024-08-07 20:46 ` Sebastián Monía
2024-08-08  4:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-08-08  5:40   ` Christopher Dimech
2024-08-09  7:08 ` Emanuel Berg
2024-08-09  8:21   ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2024-08-09  8:36     ` Emanuel Berg
2024-08-09 10:46       ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-08-09 22:27         ` Emanuel Berg
2024-08-09 13:47       ` Eduardo Ochs
2024-08-09 14:03         ` Emanuel Berg
2024-08-09 22:47       ` Bob Rogers
2024-08-09 23:21         ` Emanuel Berg
2024-08-10  5:56           ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-08-11  2:12       ` Richard Stallman

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