Re: [gnu.org #194297] Re: Emacs-devel list IS slow

Re: [gnu.org #194297] Re: Emacs-devel list IS slow

[Paul Fisher via RT]

"eliz via RT" <sysadmin@gnu.org> writes:

> Here's another example.  Note that it took 3 hours for the message to
> make the leg from mail to the list:

We rolled out a new server late last night to solve the current mail
delays -- lists.gnu.org.  We're still working on getting archives up
on the new server, and that work should be completed soon.

The current mail delay problems should be gone now.  Please let us
know if you notice any more delays going forward.


Paul Fisher
Free Software Foundation

Re: [gnu.org #194297] Re: Emacs-devel list IS slow

[eliz via RT]

> From: "Paul Fisher via RT" <sysadmin@gnu.org>
> Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 13:49:10 -0400
> 
> The current mail delay problems should be gone now.  Please let us
> know if you notice any more delays going forward.

Thanks!

Re: [gnu.org #194297] Re: Emacs-devel list IS slow

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: "Paul Fisher via RT" <sysadmin@gnu.org>
> Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 13:49:10 -0400
> 
> The current mail delay problems should be gone now.  Please let us
> know if you notice any more delays going forward.

Thanks!

Re: [gnu.org #194297] Re: Emacs-devel list IS slow

[Kim F. Storm]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> > From: "Paul Fisher via RT" <sysadmin@gnu.org>
> > Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 13:49:10 -0400
> > 
> > The current mail delay problems should be gone now.  Please let us
> > know if you notice any more delays going forward.
> 
> Thanks!

Turn around time on the mailing list is now MUCH, MUCH better.

But there are other problems:

- The emacs-devel and emacs-pretest-bug mailing list archives are gone.
  http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel is a dead link.
  
- A simple search for "emacs" on savannah.gnu.org no longer finds GNU Emacs

  http://savannah.gnu.org/search/?words=emacs&type_of_search=soft&Search=Search&exact=1

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: [gnu.org #194297] Re: Emacs-devel list IS slow

[(Kim F. Storm) via RT]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> > From: "Paul Fisher via RT" <sysadmin@gnu.org>
> > Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 13:49:10 -0400
> > 
> > The current mail delay problems should be gone now.  Please let us
> > know if you notice any more delays going forward.
> 
> Thanks!

Turn around time on the mailing list is now MUCH, MUCH better.

But there are other problems:

- The emacs-devel and emacs-pretest-bug mailing list archives are gone.
  http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel is a dead link.
  
- A simple search for "emacs" on savannah.gnu.org no longer finds GNU Emacs

  http://savannah.gnu.org/search/?words=emacs&type_of_search=soft&Search=Search&exact=1

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: [gnu.org #194297] Re: Emacs-devel list IS slow

[Kim F. Storm]

I wrote

> 
> - The emacs-devel and emacs-pretest-bug mailing list archives are gone.
>   http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel is a dead link.

This is still true.

>   
> - A simple search for "emacs" on savannah.gnu.org no longer finds GNU Emacs
> 
>   http://savannah.gnu.org/search/?words=emacs&type_of_search=soft&Search=Search&exact=1

This was a false alarm -- I see it now.  Sorry for the noise.

However, if I search for "GNU emacs", it doesn't show up.

Maybe the project should be called "GNU Emacs" rather than just "emacs".

++kfs

Re: [gnu.org #194297] Re: Emacs-devel list IS slow

[(Kim F. Storm) via RT]

I wrote

> 
> - The emacs-devel and emacs-pretest-bug mailing list archives are gone.
>   http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel is a dead link.

This is still true.

>   
> - A simple search for "emacs" on savannah.gnu.org no longer finds GNU Emacs
> 
>   http://savannah.gnu.org/search/?words=emacs&type_of_search=soft&Search=Search&exact=1

This was a false alarm -- I see it now.  Sorry for the noise.

However, if I search for "GNU emacs", it doesn't show up.

Maybe the project should be called "GNU Emacs" rather than just "emacs".

++kfs

Re: [gnu.org #194297] Re: Emacs-devel list IS slow

[Paul Fisher via RT]

"(Kim F. Storm) via RT" <sysadmin@gnu.org> writes:

> - The emacs-devel and emacs-pretest-bug mailing list archives are
> gone.  http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel is a dead link.

Mailing list archives are being regenerated this weekend on the new
machine.  As the archives are recreated, they'll show up in their
proper locations.

The archives for all lists should be back up by the end of day on
Monday.  Currently 896 out of 1496 list archives are back online.

Paul Fisher
Free Software Foundation

Re: [gnu.org #194297] Re: Emacs-devel list IS slow

[eliz via RT]

> From: "Paul Fisher via RT" <sysadmin@gnu.org>
> Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 19:31:00 -0400
> 
> The archives for all lists should be back up by the end of day on
> Monday.  Currently 896 out of 1496 list archives are back online.

Thanks again.

Re: [gnu.org #194297] Re: Emacs-devel list IS slow

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: "Paul Fisher via RT" <sysadmin@gnu.org>
> Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 19:31:00 -0400
> 
> The archives for all lists should be back up by the end of day on
> Monday.  Currently 896 out of 1496 list archives are back online.

Thanks again.

Re: [gnu.org #194297] Re: Emacs-devel list IS slow

[Juri Linkov]

storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:
>> - A simple search for "emacs" on savannah.gnu.org no longer finds GNU Emacs
>> 
>>   http://savannah.gnu.org/search/?words=emacs&type_of_search=soft&Search=Search&exact=1
>
> This was a false alarm -- I see it now.  Sorry for the noise.
>
> However, if I search for "GNU emacs", it doesn't show up.

Searching for "emacs" and not finding it is much better than if
you were searching for "emacs" and found vi instead.  Unfortunately,
this is what Google does now.  If you search for emacs by
http://www.google.com/search?q=best+emacs&cat=gwd%2FTop
then Google returns results with the first link pointing to Vi editor :-(

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: [gnu.org #194297] Re: Emacs-devel list IS slow

[Richard Stallman]

    Searching for "emacs" and not finding it is much better than if
    you were searching for "emacs" and found vi instead.  Unfortunately,
    this is what Google does now.  If you search for emacs by
    http://www.google.com/search?q=best+emacs&cat=gwd%2FTop
    then Google returns results with the first link pointing to Vi editor :-(

Is there any procedure for reporting such errors to Google?
(I have no idea.)  If there is, could someone do it?

    >> - A simple search for "emacs" on savannah.gnu.org no longer finds GNU Emacs
    >> 
    >>   http://savannah.gnu.org/search/?words=emacs&type_of_search=soft&Search=Search&exact=1
    >
    > This was a false alarm -- I see it now.  Sorry for the noise.
    >
    > However, if I search for "GNU emacs", it doesn't show up.

I will report that to the Savannah people.

Re: [gnu.org #194297] Re: Emacs-devel list IS slow

[Lawrence Mitchell]

Richard Stallman wrote:

>     Searching for "emacs" and not finding it is much better than if
>     you were searching for "emacs" and found vi instead.  Unfortunately,
>     this is what Google does now.  If you search for emacs by
>     http://www.google.com/search?q=best+emacs&cat=gwd%2FTop
>     then Google returns results with the first link pointing to Vi editor :-(

This is not strictly true.  Searching in the directory category
gives, as results, links to Emacs-related pages.

The first link on the page is a "Google Directory" link.  Since
Vi lives in the same category ("Editors"), as Emacs, Google
suggests that its category may be of interest.  To whit:

| Directory 	Results 1 - 10 of about 368 for best emacs. (0.23 seconds)

This is what we searched for.

| Related categories: 	  Computers > Software > Editors > Vi
|                         Computers > Software > Internet > Clients > WWW > Browsers

These are Google directory categories that Google's backend
thinks may also be of interest.

| Emacs: The Sacred Editor
| Category: Computers > Open Source > Software > Editors > Emacs
| Theological Issues concerning The One True Editor, with
| particular reference to vi. As Saint IGNUcius...
| www.dina.dk/~abraham/religion/ - Cached - Similar pages

This is the first link.


> Is there any procedure for reporting such errors to Google?
> (I have no idea.)  If there is, could someone do it?

If people think there is a flaw in the Google's /search/
results, one can report it via email to
search-quality@google.com.

If one wants to query the web directory (which in this case is
the pertinant one, I think), one can email
directory-feedback@google.com

[...]

-- 
Lawrence Mitchell <wence@gmx.li>

Re: [gnu.org #194297] Re: Emacs-devel list IS slow

[Juri Linkov]

Lawrence Mitchell <wence@gmx.li> writes:
> | Related categories:   Computers > Software > Editors > Vi
> |                       Computers > Software > Internet > Clients > WWW > Browsers
>
> These are Google directory categories that Google's backend
> thinks may also be of interest.

But when the Google directory is searched for Vi then the first and only
category is still the same "Computers > Software > Editors > Vi",
not Emacs.  So there is only a one-directional relation: from Emacs to Vi.

> | Emacs: The Sacred Editor
> | Category: Computers > Open Source > Software > Editors > Emacs

This is another flaw in Google categorization: Emacs is placed
under Open Source category.

> If people think there is a flaw in the Google's /search/
> results, one can report it via email to
> search-quality@google.com.
>
> If one wants to query the web directory (which in this case is
> the pertinant one, I think), one can email
> directory-feedback@google.com

Since the flaw is not in Google search results, but in the directory
where entries are hand-edited, I think the correct email to report
is the latter you suggested.

OTOH, Google search results (not from the directory) are not bad:
searching Google for the phrase "The Mother of All Languages"
(with or without quotes, no matter) returns the first link pointing
to the Emacs Lisp page :-)

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: [gnu.org #194297] Re: Emacs-devel list IS slow

[Richard Stallman]

    > | Emacs: The Sacred Editor
    > | Category: Computers > Open Source > Software > Editors > Emacs

    This is another flaw in Google categorization: Emacs is placed
    under Open Source category.

Of all the problems, this one hurts us the worst--but they have surely
done this intentionally, so it is unlikely that they would change it
for us.

It makes no sense to ask them to make a separate "free software"
category.  It is clearly right to have just one category containing
GNU Emacs, Apache, and Linux; splitting it in two would be unhelpful
for the users.

What we would want them to do is to label this one category with "free
software" as well as "open source".  I suppose they will say that is
too long.

So people will keep coming to the GNU Project and our software,
thinking that we agree with the open source movement.  We therefore
must continue to find frequent opportunities to say "Open source?  We
disagree completely with open source!"  And as they recognize
that part of what they were told is untrue, we can explain about
free software.