Re: texinfo.tex change.

Re: texinfo.tex change.

[Kim F. Storm]

Lute Kamstra <Lute.Kamstra@xs4all.nl> writes:

> 2005-02-08  Kim F. Storm  <storm@cua.dk>
>
> 	* texinfo.tex (LaTex): Add def.
>
> Isn't texinfo.tex maintained by Texinfo and once in a while updated
> from that project?  If so, any changes we make to that file here will
> eventually be overwritten.

I don't know -- but a recent change to man/calc.texi breaks bootstrapping
because it uses @LaTex{} -- which isn't defined.

If someone has a better fix, please install it and undo my change.

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: texinfo.tex change.

[Lute Kamstra]

storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:

> Lute Kamstra <Lute.Kamstra@xs4all.nl> writes:
>
>> 2005-02-08  Kim F. Storm  <storm@cua.dk>
>>
>> 	* texinfo.tex (LaTex): Add def.
>>
>> Isn't texinfo.tex maintained by Texinfo and once in a while updated
>> from that project?  If so, any changes we make to that file here will
>> eventually be overwritten.
>
> I don't know -- but a recent change to man/calc.texi breaks bootstrapping
> because it uses @LaTex{} -- which isn't defined.
>
> If someone has a better fix, please install it and undo my change.

We could update man/texinfo.tex (and lispref/texinfo.tex and
lispintro/texinfo.tex) to version 4.8 which defines @LaTeX.  Shall I
do this?


Lute.

Re: texinfo.tex change.

[Lute Kamstra]

Lute Kamstra <Lute.Kamstra.lists@xs4all.nl> writes:

[...]

> We could update man/texinfo.tex (and lispref/texinfo.tex and
> lispintro/texinfo.tex) to version 4.8 which defines @LaTeX.

There is no lispref/texinfo.tex.  Don't we provide texinfo.tex so that
a user that doesn't have Texinfo installed can do something like "tex
emacs.texi" in the man directory to build the Emacs manual?  If so,
shouldn't we also provide lispref/texinfo.tex to enable that user to
build the Lisp manual in the same way?

Lute.

Re: texinfo.tex change.

[Jay Belanger]

storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:

> Lute Kamstra <Lute.Kamstra@xs4all.nl> writes:
>
>> 2005-02-08  Kim F. Storm  <storm@cua.dk>
>>
>> 	* texinfo.tex (LaTex): Add def.

That should be LaTeX.

>> Isn't texinfo.tex maintained by Texinfo and once in a while updated
>> from that project?  If so, any changes we make to that file here will
>> eventually be overwritten.

If so, this would be a harmless change, since the newer version of
texinfo.tex would have a definition for @LaTeX.

> I don't know -- but a recent change to man/calc.texi breaks bootstrapping
> because it uses @LaTex{} -- which isn't defined.

Sorry about that.  I knew @LaTeX{} was defined in texinfo; I didn't
realize that it was a recent addition.

This would affect creation of dvi files; I'm surprised it affected
bootstrapping, though.  Before the texinfo.tex change, I ran 'makeinfo
calc.texi' and it worked fine.

Jay

Re: texinfo.tex change.

[Kim F. Storm]

Jay Belanger <belanger@truman.edu> writes:

> storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:
>
>> Lute Kamstra <Lute.Kamstra@xs4all.nl> writes:
>>
>>> 2005-02-08  Kim F. Storm  <storm@cua.dk>
>>>
>>> 	* texinfo.tex (LaTex): Add def.
>
> That should be LaTeX.
>
>>> Isn't texinfo.tex maintained by Texinfo and once in a while updated
>>> from that project?  If so, any changes we make to that file here will
>>> eventually be overwritten.
>
> If so, this would be a harmless change, since the newer version of
> texinfo.tex would have a definition for @LaTeX.
>
>> I don't know -- but a recent change to man/calc.texi breaks bootstrapping
>> because it uses @LaTex{} -- which isn't defined.
>
> Sorry about that.  I knew @LaTeX{} was defined in texinfo; I didn't
> realize that it was a recent addition.
>
> This would affect creation of dvi files; I'm surprised it affected
> bootstrapping, though.  Before the texinfo.tex change, I ran 'makeinfo
> calc.texi' and it worked fine.

I just bootstrapped again after the 22.1 version number update, and it
failed again in calc.texi like this

calc.texi:740: Unknown command `LaTeX'.
calc.texi:740: Misplaced {.
calc.texi:740: Misplaced }.

etc...

so my change to texinfo.tex wasn't sufficient to get rid of this.

If makeinfo doesn't use it, why do we include it?

makeinfo --version says:

 makeinfo (GNU texinfo) 4.3

Copyright (C) 2002 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
There is NO warranty.  You may redistribute this software
under the terms of the GNU General Public License.
For more information about these matters, see the files named COPYING.



-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: texinfo.tex change.

[Lute Kamstra]

storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:

> Jay Belanger <belanger@truman.edu> writes:

[...]

>> Sorry about that.  I knew @LaTeX{} was defined in texinfo; I didn't
>> realize that it was a recent addition.
>>
>> This would affect creation of dvi files; I'm surprised it affected
>> bootstrapping, though.  Before the texinfo.tex change, I ran 'makeinfo
>> calc.texi' and it worked fine.
>
> I just bootstrapped again after the 22.1 version number update, and it
> failed again in calc.texi like this
>
> calc.texi:740: Unknown command `LaTeX'.
> calc.texi:740: Misplaced {.
> calc.texi:740: Misplaced }.
>
> etc...
>
> so my change to texinfo.tex wasn't sufficient to get rid of this.
>
> If makeinfo doesn't use it, why do we include it?
>
> makeinfo --version says:
>
>  makeinfo (GNU texinfo) 4.3

@LaTeX{} was introduced in Texinfo 4.7 (9 April 2004).  I'll update
README that currently says that Texinfo 4.2 or later is needed.

Lute.

Re: texinfo.tex change.

[Jay Belanger]

Lute Kamstra <Lute.Kamstra.lists@xs4all.nl> writes:

> storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:
...
>> If makeinfo doesn't use it, why do we include it?

I thought so people could make dvi and then hardcopies of the
documentation. 

>> makeinfo --version says:
>>
>>  makeinfo (GNU texinfo) 4.3

I currently have Texinfo 4.8.
I'll add a definition for @LaTeX in calc.texi, so it won't matter
which version of makeinfo is used (I hope).

> @LaTeX{} was introduced in Texinfo 4.7 (9 April 2004).  I'll update
> README that currently says that Texinfo 4.2 or later is needed.

The change to calc.texi will still be needed.

Jay

Re: texinfo.tex change.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Jay Belanger <belanger@truman.edu>
> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 21:46:17 -0600
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, belanger@truman.edu, "Kim F. Storm" <storm@cua.dk>
> 
> >> makeinfo --version says:
> >>
> >>  makeinfo (GNU texinfo) 4.3
> 
> I currently have Texinfo 4.8.
> I'll add a definition for @LaTeX in calc.texi, so it won't matter
> which version of makeinfo is used (I hope).

Please don't: you cannot do that in a way that would avoid problems
with versions of Texinfo that do support @LaTeX.

> > @LaTeX{} was introduced in Texinfo 4.7 (9 April 2004).  I'll update
> > README that currently says that Texinfo 4.2 or later is needed.
> 
> The change to calc.texi will still be needed.

Why do we need to use @LaTeX{} in calc.texi?  What's so important
about this macro that it must be used there?

In general, we don't want to force users to install too recent
versions of Texinfo, so the very recent introductions should be
avoided if possible.

Re: texinfo.tex change.

[Jay Belanger]

"Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
...
>> I currently have Texinfo 4.8.
>> I'll add a definition for @LaTeX in calc.texi, so it won't matter
>> which version of makeinfo is used (I hope).
>
> Please don't: you cannot do that in a way that would avoid problems
> with versions of Texinfo that do support @LaTeX.

I already put it in, but it could come out easily enough.
But it didn't cause any problems here.  (I put in the definition
for info output, not TeX output.)  I thought it would just override
any previous definition of @LaTeX, if there were one.

>> > @LaTeX{} was introduced in Texinfo 4.7 (9 April 2004).  I'll update
>> > README that currently says that Texinfo 4.2 or later is needed.
>>
>> The change to calc.texi will still be needed.
>
> Why do we need to use @LaTeX{} in calc.texi?  What's so important
> about this macro that it must be used there?

To typeset "LaTeX" properly.

> In general, we don't want to force users to install too recent
> versions of Texinfo, so the very recent introductions should be
> avoided if possible.

I didn't realize that this was a recent introduction when I put it in.
All instances of @LaTeX could be replaced by La@TeX, but then the
typeset output wouldn't look as good.  It would make more sense, then,
to either stick with @LaTeX and put definitions (\gdef for TeX and
macro for non-TeX output) in calc.texi, or I guess I should
properly define a new macro @fooLaTeX (or whatever) and use that.

Jay

Re: texinfo.tex change.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: Lute.Kamstra.lists@xs4all.nl, emacs-devel@gnu.org, storm@cua.dk
> From: Jay Belanger <belanger@truman.edu>
> Cc: belanger@truman.edu
> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 23:28:02 -0600
> 
> I thought it would just override any previous definition of @LaTeX,
> if there were one.

It doesn't, not cleanly, anyway.  It's a deficiency of the Texinfo
language that it doesn't allow to define macros only for specific
versions of the translator.

Re: texinfo.tex change.

[Robert J. Chassell]

   Why do we need to use @LaTeX{} in calc.texi?  What's so important
   about this macro that it must be used there?

It turns out that the maintainers of Calc mode added LaTeX to the
types of user visible output for which it can automatically write
mathematical expressions.

Thus, in addition to the existing `normal', `big', `C language',
`TeX', and other modes, Calc can display a mathematical expression in
LaTeX format.

This is very convenient for those who write in LaTeX since the
expression can be used directly in that format.

Thus, in Emacs Calc, the same expression comes in different output
formats selected by `d N', `d B', etc:

      The `Golden Ratio', 1.618 ... ,  in Emacs Lisp:   (/ (1+ (sqrt 5)) 2)

  Emacs Calc mode

    `Normal'    (1 + sqrt(5)) / 2

                     ___
    `Big'       1 + V 5
                --------
                   2

    `TeX'       {1 + \sqrt{5} \over 2}

    `LaTeX'     \frac{1 + \sqrt{5}}{2}

plus Fortran, Pascal, Eqn, and others

I did not know that LaTeX mode had been added.  But as I said, it is
very convenient for those who write papers using LaTeX, as many do,
even though sad experience shows LaTeX to be a worse deep
representation than Texinfo.  (LaTeX is fine for a single format
output, as in 19th century typesetting; it is poor for multiple format
outputs, as in 20th or 21st century computer use.)

Nowadays, @LaTeX{} occurs 35 times in calc.texi.

-- 
    Robert J. Chassell                         
    bob@rattlesnake.com                         GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8
    http://www.rattlesnake.com                  http://www.teak.cc

Re: texinfo.tex change.

[Jay Belanger]

"Robert J. Chassell" <bob@rattlesnake.com> writes:
...
> I did not know that LaTeX mode had been added.

Should this have been announced somewhere?

> But as I said, it is very convenient for those who write papers
> using LaTeX, as many do,

Yes.  To give credit where it's due, this was suggested by David
Kastrup. 

> Nowadays, @LaTeX{} occurs 35 times in calc.texi.

Not anymore...

Re: texinfo.tex change.

[Richard Stallman]

The Emacs manual uses La@TeX{}, which does not need any new macro.
Please switch to that in the Calc manual, and avoid the problem?

Re: texinfo.tex change.

[Jay Belanger]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> The Emacs manual uses La@TeX{}, which does not need any new macro.
> Please switch to that in the Calc manual, and avoid the problem?

Done; although this will make the printed output look less nice. 

Re: texinfo.tex change.

[David Kastrup]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> The Emacs manual uses La@TeX{}, which does not need any new macro.
> Please switch to that in the Calc manual, and avoid the problem?

The problem is that La@TeX{} has a half-graphical Logo when
typesetting with TeX.  One should either use the complete logo, or
none.  The problem can be solved by placing the following into a macro
file or the document:

@ifnottex
@macro LaTeX {}
La@TeX{}
@end macro
@end ifnottex
@tex
\gdef\LaTeX{L\kern-.36em\raise.3ex\hbox{\sc{a}}\kern-.15em\TeX}
@end tex

This will define the macro @LaTeX{} in case it is not available
already.  It may be that using it in section headers and indexes is
not without problems, in particular when generating PDF documentation.
But just the same is the case for @TeX{}, and AUCTeX has some special
workaround stuff in its Texinfo macros, should this turn out to make
problems.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: texinfo.tex change.

[Richard Stallman]

    The problem is that La@TeX{} has a half-graphical Logo when
    typesetting with TeX.

I think we have used that for ages--should we really consider it a
"problem"?

Re: texinfo.tex change.

[Jay Belanger]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     The problem is that La@TeX{} has a half-graphical Logo when
>     typesetting with TeX.
>
> I think we have used that for ages--should we really consider it a
> "problem"?

I don't think doing something for a long time automatically makes it
not a problem.  La@TeX{} seems to me to be a quick-and-easy way
to approximate the LaTeX logo, but it's only an approximation and
should eventually be done properly.

Re: texinfo.tex change.

[Stefan Monnier]

>> The problem is that La@TeX{} has a half-graphical Logo when
>> typesetting with TeX.
>> 
>> I think we have used that for ages--should we really consider it a
>> "problem"?

> I don't think doing something for a long time automatically makes it
> not a problem.  La@TeX{} seems to me to be a quick-and-easy way
> to approximate the LaTeX logo, but it's only an approximation and
> should eventually be done properly.

It'll be eventually done properly.  It's just that the @LaTeX macro is too
recent to be used just now,


        Stefan

Re: texinfo.tex change.

[Richard Stallman]

Forking texinfo.tex is not an acceptable solution.

    We could update man/texinfo.tex (and lispref/texinfo.tex and
    lispintro/texinfo.tex) to version 4.8 which defines @LaTeX.  Shall I
    do this?

That is a fine approach (but it needs to be tested afterward).