twitter.el, anyone?

twitter.el, anyone?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

Would someone like to develop an Emacs package for using Twitter?

This would provide several benefits, one being to offer a simple
recipe for end users to use Twitter without running nonfree software.
(That is currently possible but you have to take care.)

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Joel Mccracken]

There is twittering mode:

http://twmode.sourceforge.net/

I use it daily, and it works pretty well. 

On Jan 14, 2014, at 11:04 PM, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> 
> Would someone like to develop an Emacs package for using Twitter?
> 
> This would provide several benefits, one being to offer a simple
> recipe for end users to use Twitter without running nonfree software.
> (That is currently possible but you have to take care.)
> 
> -- 
> Dr Richard Stallman
> President, Free Software Foundation
> 51 Franklin St
> Boston MA 02110
> USA
> www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
> Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
>  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.
> 
> 

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Karl Fogel]

Joel Mccracken <mccracken.joel@gmail.com> writes:
>There is twittering mode:
>http://twmode.sourceforge.net/
>I use it daily, and it works pretty well. 

I haven't used that or any other one daily, but
http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/Twitter lists a few.  It does look like
TwitteringMode is the leading candidate right now.

-K

>On Jan 14, 2014, at 11:04 PM, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:
>
>> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
>> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
>> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>> 
>> Would someone like to develop an Emacs package for using Twitter?
>> 
>> This would provide several benefits, one being to offer a simple
>> recipe for end users to use Twitter without running nonfree software.
>> (That is currently possible but you have to take care.)
>> 
>> -- 
>> Dr Richard Stallman
>> President, Free Software Foundation
>> 51 Franklin St
>> Boston MA 02110
>> USA
>> www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
>> Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
>>  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.
>> 
>> 

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[David Kastrup]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
> Would someone like to develop an Emacs package for using Twitter?
>
> This would provide several benefits, one being to offer a simple
> recipe for end users to use Twitter without running nonfree software.
> (That is currently possible but you have to take care.)

Wasn't Twitter another such service that was playing fast and loose with
privacy and customer data?  I have to admit that it's hard keepin track
these days...

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Vibhav Pant]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

IIRC, Twitter does track the users location to inject "Promoted content", though I don't know whether it does this on a non-browser client too.

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:
>Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider
>]]]
>> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,
>]]]
>> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example.
>]]]
>>
>> Would someone like to develop an Emacs package for using Twitter?
>>
>> This would provide several benefits, one being to offer a simple
>> recipe for end users to use Twitter without running nonfree software.
>> (That is currently possible but you have to take care.)
>
>Wasn't Twitter another such service that was playing fast and loose
>with
>privacy and customer data?  I have to admit that it's hard keepin track
>these days...
>
>--
>David Kastrup

- --
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[chad]

On 14 Jan 2014, at 23:42, Vibhav Pant <vibhavp@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> IIRC, Twitter does track the users location to inject "Promoted content", though I don't know whether it does this on a non-browser client too.

It does not.

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Stefan Monnier]

>> There is twittering mode:
>> http://twmode.sourceforge.net/
>> I use it daily, and it works pretty well. 
> I haven't used that or any other one daily, but
> http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/Twitter lists a few.  It does look like
> TwitteringMode is the leading candidate right now.

Inclusion in GNU ELPA would be nice.  Could someone contact the authors?


        Stefan

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Bastien]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

> Inclusion in GNU ELPA would be nice.  Could someone contact the
> authors?

Done.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

    Wasn't Twitter another such service that was playing fast and loose with
    privacy and customer data?

Twitter has gone to court to protect privacy and does not require
users to give their names.  I don't know what location tracking it does,
but if you contact it thru Tor it won't find out your location.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

One question is: which Twitter operations can it do?
Can it handle all the operations needed for someone to use Twitter?
Can it register an account?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Vibhav Pant]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

I have used twittering mode for a while, and it can do everything you need to *browse twitter*. However, I'm not sure that customising the user profile is something it can do, as I don't know whether twitter provides API methods for that.
As for registering, I'm sure its a no-no, though it shouldn't be that hard to do it with eww.

Even then, twittering mode provides an excellent twitter client within Emacs.

>Can it handle all the operations needed for someone to use Twitter?
>Can it register an account?

- --
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[David Kastrup]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>     Wasn't Twitter another such service that was playing fast and loose with
>     privacy and customer data?
>
> Twitter has gone to court to protect privacy and does not require
> users to give their names.  I don't know what location tracking it does,
> but if you contact it thru Tor it won't find out your location.

Ok, thanks.  As I said: hard to keep track these days...

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Joel Mccracken]

Agreed, here. It does prevent me from needing to use the website in most cases. 

However, I find myself using another client for more complicated things, such as viewing conversations.

One "hiccup" is that Twitter-the-company has taken a semi-hostile stance toward twitter clients. 
Any client that wants to have access to the API needs to tread carefully.

On Jan 16, 2014, at 1:13 PM, Vibhav Pant <vibhavp@gmail.com> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
> 
> I have used twittering mode for a while, and it can do everything you need to *browse twitter*. However, I'm not sure that customising the user profile is something it can do, as I don't know whether twitter provides API methods for that.
> As for registering, I'm sure its a no-no, though it shouldn't be that hard to do it with eww.
> 
> Even then, twittering mode provides an excellent twitter client within Emacs.
> 
>> Can it handle all the operations needed for someone to use Twitter?
>> Can it register an account?
> 
> - --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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> 

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Sebastien Vauban]

Richard Stallman wrote:
>>     Wasn't Twitter another such service that was playing fast and loose with
>>     privacy and customer data?
>
> Twitter has gone to court to protect privacy and does not require
> users to give their names.  I don't know what location tracking it does,
> but if you contact it thru Tor it won't find out your location.

Is it possible, then, to use Twitter from Emacs but through Tor?

Best regards,
  Seb

-- 
Sebastien Vauban

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Vibhav Pant]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Once tor has been started, it can be used as a proxy by applications by pointing to a specified port.
Twittering mode does support that, through twittering-toggle-proxy.

>Is it possible, then, to use Twitter from Emacs but through Tor?
- --
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Joel Mccracken writes:

 > One "hiccup" is that Twitter-the-company has taken a semi-hostile
 > stance toward twitter clients.

Of course it has.

The business model is (ab)using customer data for business purposes,
in ways that often surprise and sometimes shock the individuals
concerned.  (The shocked ones are usually pretty darn naive, but who
are we to judge them?)

IOW, twitter.el has the same effect on privacy that Javascript has on
software freedom, AFAICS.

Not to mention that it's an inherent problem (the twitter database is
closed and can't be opened because that would legally be a hairball),
whereas the Javascript problem is easy to fix: grep the downloaded
code for a license notice.  If there isn't one, don't run it -- it's
not free software.  Otherwise, check the license.

Then write an RFC to standardize license notices for use with software
that checks licenses of data downloaded from the Internet, and create
an IANA registry.

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[chad]

On 16 Jan 2014, at 13:16, Joel Mccracken <mccracken.joel@gmail.com> wrote:

> One "hiccup" is that Twitter-the-company has taken a semi-hostile stance toward twitter clients. 
> Any client that wants to have access to the API needs to tread carefully.

This is a big deal for Twitter the company, since non-official
clients dont carry the advertising (i.e. revenue generation stream)
that the official clients and web site do. They havent yet shut
down private clients, and it would probably be good to convince
them not to, but theyre a public company now, so its probably harder.

~Chad

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

    I have used twittering mode for a while, and it can do everything
    you need to *browse twitter*.

I am not sure what "browse twitter" means, but the words suggest only
viewing messages, not sending them.  Can you tweet using twittering
mode?  Can you send messages using twittering mode?

    As for registering, I'm sure its a no-no, though it shouldn't be
    that hard to do it with eww.

Would you like to try it and see?

The next step would be to write code to communicate with the page,
if necessary mimicking any Javascript code.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Bastien]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> Can you tweet using twittering mode?

Yes.

> Can you send messages using twittering mode?

Yes.

>     As for registering, I'm sure its a no-no, though it shouldn't be
>     that hard to do it with eww.
>
> Would you like to try it and see?

I tried and failed.  The field for submitting my username and my
password does not seem to be active.

> The next step would be to write code to communicate with the page,
> if necessary mimicking any Javascript code.

I don't think this is necessary, as twittering-mode already has a
nice display of tweets.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

    > Would you like to try it and see?

    I tried and failed.  The field for submitting my username and my
    password does not seem to be active.

This is where work is needed.  Does twitter have a separate mobile site?
If so, does that work?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Vibhav Pant]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

>Does twitter have a separate mobile site?
Yes.
>If so, does that work?

Most websites (possibly including Twitter) are known to change to desktop version it you log in to the mills version via a desktop user agent. I guess we would have to change eww's user agent (to that of a {preferably free} mobile browser) for it to register using the mobile website.
- --
Vibhav Pant
vibhavp@gmail.com

Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Vibhav Pant]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

>mills version
That was "mobile version". Sorry for that.
- --
Vibhav Pant
vibhavp@gmail.com

Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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atYgsfGS7ZX9FJiaAVWIIXJmn6luBBie/YdqNjQrF8npY3Zwaiz6sq79HLmXyOrY
nT4QwjhaiQFAm7Cu8Kd+qoi+qB1e2iPHOkAxGhUhVLTNiP8lGC5axjR3qOE0K/gI
=BsaQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

    Most websites (possibly including Twitter) are known to change to
    desktop version it you log in to the mills version via a desktop
    user agent. I guess we would have to change eww's user agent (to
    that of a {preferably free} mobile browser) for it to register
    using the mobile website.

Would you like to keep pushing on this until you get it to work?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Vibhav Pant]

On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 5:42 PM, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:

> Would you like to keep pushing on this until you get it to work?

I sent a patch to add support for custom user agents in url.el:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-01/msg01710.html

Next would be to make it handle redirects correctly, which it doesn't
seem to do well. (The twitter registration on the mobile site has a
few redirects)

-- 
Vibhav Pant
vibhavp@gmail.com

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Bastien]

I contacted the maintainer of twittering-mode and he is willing to
contribute twittering-mode as a GNU ELPA package, but we identified
these two blockers:

- twittering-mode uses CA certificates provided by Symantec here
  https://www.symantec.com/page.jsp?id=roots

- we first need to check whether eww can handle the creation of a
  Twitter account.

The first blocker is strong: using these certificates requires
the authors to sign Symantec Root Certificate license agreement,
which is not compatible with GPL:

https://www.symantec.com/content/en/us/about/media/repository/root-certificate-license-agreement.pdf

I asked the authors whether those certificates are really needed.

The second blocker is being explored: if we can use eww to create a
Twitter account through the mobile website, then we're fine.

Other than that, the number of people to ask the copyright assignment
to is 6 persons (direct contributors of twittering-mode) and 3 others:

- Derek Upham - sand (at) blarg.net who contributed
  http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/HmacShaOne

- The author of mew-lock.xpm, as this image is used in
  `twittering-ssl-indicator-image'.

- The author of Wanderlust, as the images `plugged.xpm' and
  `unplugged.xpm' are used in `twittering-active-indicator-image'
  and `twittering-inactive-indicator-image'.

If we can get rid of the first two blockers, I'm willing to help
twittering-mode maintainers to get the copyright assignments.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Achim Gratz]

Bastien writes:
> - twittering-mode uses CA certificates provided by Symantec here
>   https://www.symantec.com/page.jsp?id=roots

Everyone else probably uses Mozilla's cert bundle or cURL's conversion
to PEM format:

http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/security/nss/lib/ckfw/builtins/certdata.txt
http://curl.haxx.se/docs/caextract.html

The source file is licensed under the Mozilla Public License 2.0:

http://mozilla.org/MPL/2.0/



Regards,
Achim.
-- 
+<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+

Waldorf MIDI Implementation & additional documentation:
http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfDocs

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Stefan Monnier]

> If we can get rid of the first two blockers, I'm willing to help
> twittering-mode maintainers to get the copyright assignments.

Thank you Bastien,

Regarding the second issue, while I agree it's important to be able to
create a Twitter account using only Free Software (which mostly means
without having to run non-Free Javascript), I don't see any reason why
it should be eww.


        Stefan

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

    I sent a patch to add support for custom user agents in url.el:
    http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-01/msg01710.html

    Next would be to make it handle redirects correctly, which it doesn't
    seem to do well. (The twitter registration on the mobile site has a
    few redirects)

Thanks in advance if you do it.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Bastien]

Achim Gratz <Stromeko@nexgo.de> writes:

> Bastien writes:
>> - twittering-mode uses CA certificates provided by Symantec here
>>   https://www.symantec.com/page.jsp?id=roots
>
> Everyone else probably uses Mozilla's cert bundle or cURL's conversion
> to PEM format:
>
> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/security/nss/lib/ckfw/builtins/certdata.txt
> http://curl.haxx.se/docs/caextract.html
>
> The source file is licensed under the Mozilla Public License 2.0:
>
> http://mozilla.org/MPL/2.0/

Thanks.  I notified the authors about this possibility.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Bastien]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

> Regarding the second issue, while I agree it's important to be able to
> create a Twitter account using only Free Software (which mostly means
> without having to run non-Free Javascript), I don't see any reason why
> it should be eww.

Yes.  If someone knows how to create a Twitter account without running
non-free javascript, then this is no blocker anymore.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

    Regarding the second issue, while I agree it's important to be able to
    create a Twitter account using only Free Software (which mostly means
    without having to run non-Free Javascript), I don't see any reason why
    it should be eww.

It doesn't have to involve eww.  I asked that just to test whether it
can be done without JS.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

    - twittering-mode uses CA certificates provided by Symantec here
      https://www.symantec.com/page.jsp?id=roots

Could you explain how twittering-mode relates to those certificates?

    The first blocker is strong: using these certificates requires
    the authors to sign Symantec Root Certificate license agreement,
    which is not compatible with GPL:

I don't follow this statement.  Who exactly has to agree to that license?

What effect does this have on users of twittering mode?  What effect
does this have on redistributors of twittering mode?

As for incompatibility with the GPL, is that issue relevant?  The
certificate need not be covered by the GPL, and it is not software,
is it?  Isn't it data?

Anyway, without understanding how the certificate relates to
the software, I can't tell what the issue is.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

    Yes.  If someone knows how to create a Twitter account without running
    non-free javascript, then this is no blocker anymore.

It is also possible to write a program that mimics execution of
that Javascript code.  I found someone to do that for posting comments
on theguardian.com.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Bastien]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>     - twittering-mode uses CA certificates provided by Symantec here
>       https://www.symantec.com/page.jsp?id=roots
>
> Could you explain how twittering-mode relates to those certificates?

I'm quoting Tadashi:

  According to https://dev.twitter.com/discussions/24239 , connections
  to api.twitter.com are now restricted to TLS/SSL connections only.
  
  CA certificates are required for verifying the server certificates
  and establishing SSL connection. Since SSL connection is established
  by an external program such as curl, wget, gnutls-cli or openssl,
  such a program refers to certificates.
  
  Therefore, an external program must be able to refer to valid
  certificates that can verify the Twitter server certificates.  Of
  course, if a system has such certificates and an external program
  can refer to it, twittering-mode do not have to include
  certificates.
  
  I have embedded them for convenience of various platforms.

>     The first blocker is strong: using these certificates requires
>     the authors to sign Symantec Root Certificate license agreement,
>     which is not compatible with GPL:
>
> I don't follow this statement.  Who exactly has to agree to that license?

The developer who uses the certificates and redistribute them.

> What effect does this have on users of twittering mode?

None.

> What effect does this have on redistributors of twittering mode?

Developers have to agree with these restrictions:

  3. RESTRICTIONS.
  
  You may not: (a) modify or create any derivative works of Root
  Certificates; (b) assign, sublicense, sell, rent, or lease
  Symantec's root keys or Root Certificates; (c) use such Root
  Certificates except as expressly permitted under this Agreement; (d)
  remove or alter any trademark, logo, copyright, or other proprietary
  notices, legends, symbols, or labels provided in the Root
  Certificates; or (e) certify, or cause a third party to certify, the
  public key contained in the Root Certificates by issuing or creating
  a Certificate containing such public key.

The full license is here:
https://www.symantec.com/content/en/us/about/media/repository/root-certificate-license-agreement.pdf

> As for incompatibility with the GPL, is that issue relevant?  The
> certificate need not be covered by the GPL, and it is not software,
> is it?  Isn't it data?

Yes, certificates are data.

I've not read the Symantec license in its entirety, I just focused
on some part and they read as not being free software friendly in
general.  I cannot judge in details.

There is the possibility to use certificates from Mozilla :
http://curl.haxx.se/ca/

I suggested the author to give it a try and see if it works.

> Anyway, without understanding how the certificate relates to
> the software, I can't tell what the issue is.

I hope it's clearer now.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Bastien]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>     Yes.  If someone knows how to create a Twitter account without running
>     non-free javascript, then this is no blocker anymore.
>
> It is also possible to write a program that mimics execution of
> that Javascript code.  I found someone to do that for posting comments
> on theguardian.com.

Tadashi (twittering-mode maintainer) confirmed he managed to create
an account using the mobile website version and w3m.  So that's not
a blocker anymore.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

Sorry, I can't concretely understand the information you sent.  Many
points are not clear to me.  For instance, is "CA certificate"
synonymous with "Symantec Root Certificate"?  I can't tell.

Does "Root Certificate" refer to private data that the server holds
(analogous to a GPG private key), or data that users should all have
(analogous to a GPG public key), or both, or what?

Does the Symantec license forbid everyone, even Twitter, from
redistributing the data that users need to run twittering mode?

Depending on the answers to these questions, that issue might be
a fatal problem or it might be no problem at all.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

    Tadashi (twittering-mode maintainer) confirmed he managed to create
    an account using the mobile website version and w3m.  So that's not
    a blocker anymore.

The next step is to implement a command in twittering mode that
helps people do it this way.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Bastien]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     Tadashi (twittering-mode maintainer) confirmed he managed to create
>     an account using the mobile website version and w3m.  So that's not
>     a blocker anymore.
>
> The next step is to implement a command in twittering mode that
> helps people do it this way.

Explanations on how to create Twitter accounts through a text browser
and encouraging users to do so, would be enough IMO.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Bastien]

twittering-mode relies on data called Root Certificates.

Here is an example of a Root Certificate:

-----BEGIN CERTIFICATE-----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-----END CERTIFICATE-----

These certificates are provided by Symantec.

When redistributing them with their software, developers have to agree
with the Root Certificate License Agreement that can be found here:

http://www.symantec.com/content/en/us/about/media/repository/root-certificate-license-agreement.pdf

Developers don't need to sign the agreement, they implicitely accept
it by using and redistributing the certificates.

My reading of the license agreement above is that using Symantec
certificates in a software creates a lot of constraints for the
developers and that these constraints are not compatible with using
them in a free software -- but I may be wrong and I will let someone
else double-check.

In the meantime, I told the twittering-mode maintainers about this
problem and they will check themselves, hopefully coming up with
other certificates.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

    Explanations on how to create Twitter accounts through a text browser
    and encouraging users to do so, would be enough IMO.

Maybe so, if they are clear and easy to follow.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Bastien]

twittering-mode maintainer will use certificates from Mozilla,
distributed under the MPL license -- thanks Achim for pointing
to this.

Also the maintainer is willing to explain precisely how to
create an account using a text browser like w3m.

There is still some paperwork to be done to get the copyright
assignments, I've sent the form to the maintainer and I'll let
him manage from here.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

    My reading of the license agreement above is that using Symantec
    certificates in a software creates a lot of constraints for the
    developers and that these constraints are not compatible with using
    them in a free software -- but I may be wrong and I will let someone
    else double-check.

It can't be part of a free program, but since it isn't code, that doesn't
really matter.  I think it is ok as data distributed with a free program.
I would put it in a file in etc.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Bastien]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> It can't be part of a free program, but since it isn't code, that doesn't
> really matter.  I think it is ok as data distributed with a free program.
> I would put it in a file in etc.

We are talking about adding twittering-mode to GNU ELPA, not to GNU
Emacs.  I think GNU ELPA supports data directories, I'm not sure how.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

Thanks for working on this.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Steinar Bang]

>>>>> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>:

> Would someone like to develop an Emacs package for using Twitter?

I've never used twitter so I may be off here, but if it is a kind of
news stream, or discussion thread, could an nntwit Gnus backend be an
idea...?

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Matt Ford]

I happily use twittering-mode and it's GPL and everything.  An nntwit
backend would be cool though.
-- 
Matt

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Tassilo Horn]

Matt Ford <matt@dancingfrog.co.uk> writes:

> I happily use twittering-mode and it's GPL and everything.

Ditto, although I don't use twitter that often anyhow.

> An nntwit backend would be cool though.

That would be interesting, indeed.  However, such a mail-like backend
would probably not really match the dynamic nature of twitter, e.g., you
usually want to see tweets as they are posted instead of checking some
group (with then dozens or hundreds of tweets) periodically.

Bye,
Tassilo

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Grim Schjetne]

Tassilo Horn <tsdh@gnu.org> writes:

> Matt Ford <matt@dancingfrog.co.uk> writes:

>> An nntwit backend would be cool though.

> That would be interesting, indeed.  However, such a mail-like backend
> would probably not really match the dynamic nature of twitter, e.g., you
> usually want to see tweets as they are posted instead of checking some
> group (with then dozens or hundreds of tweets) periodically.

I second the idea of a nntwit backend. My main problem is that there are
just too many tweets of widely varying quality to sift through, and I
think the score facility in Gnus would really help with that. And speaking
for myself, I much prefer reading them in batches as I would my email,
rather than keeping the window open and watching the tweets as they come
in while I'm trying to focus on other things.

Having said that, I'd be just as happy with twitter.el getting score facilities
as with Gnus getting tweeting facilities.

I haven't tried pumpio.el, but if there is to be official support for
microblogging in Emacs, I think that should be equally well
supported. That might be another argument for standardising on Gnus. The
pump.io license is not ideal, but at least it's free and federated.

--
gs

Re: twitter.el, anyone?

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Grim Schjetne <gs@schjetne.se> writes:

> I second the idea of a nntwit backend.

Last time I checked, you'd have to register an "application" with
Twitter to be allowed to pull down data from it, and logging in via
oauth couldn't be automated (i.e. you have to use a browser, log in, and
get a token), which is unacceptable from a UX standpoint.

Has any of that changed?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/