hebrew: bold face odd when using the monospace font.

hebrew: bold face odd when using the monospace font.

[Uwe Brauer]

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Hi

I usually use the following font

  (custom-set-faces 
   '(default ((t (:family "DejaVu Sans Mono" :foundry "unknown" :slant
			  normal :weight normal :height 143 :width normal))))))

Which gives also nice results for Hebrew. However when I want to use the
bold face version, either in org mode as in

*שלום*

Or in latex via \textbf{שלום }
then the fold face is displayed  very ugly, while the etl font behaves
as expected, I attach 2 sceenshot. How can I can change the behavior of
the bold face? Because via customize I don't see the hebrew fonts.

Uwe Brauer 


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Re: hebrew: bold face odd when using the monospace font.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es>
> Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 19:55:41 +0000
> 
> I usually use the following font
> 
>   (custom-set-faces 
>    '(default ((t (:family "DejaVu Sans Mono" :foundry "unknown" :slant
> 			  normal :weight normal :height 143 :width normal))))))
> 
> Which gives also nice results for Hebrew. However when I want to use the
> bold face version, either in org mode as in
> 
> *שלום*
> 
> Or in latex via \textbf{שלום }
> then the fold face is displayed  very ugly, while the etl font behaves
> as expected, I attach 2 sceenshot. How can I can change the behavior of
> the bold face? Because via customize I don't see the hebrew fonts.

Find a better font, e.g. via S-mouse-1.  Or use a facility outside of
Emacs to list the fonts installed on your system.

Re: hebrew: bold face odd when using the monospace font.

[Uwe Brauer]

   > Find a better font, e.g. via S-mouse-1.  Or use a facility outside of
   > Emacs to list the fonts installed on your system.


Ok so it is not possible to have the dejaVu monospace font for non bold face,
but a different font for bold face!

Re: hebrew: bold face odd when using the monospace font.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es>
> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 16:02:13 +0000
> 
> Ok so it is not possible to have the dejaVu monospace font for non bold face,
> but a different font for bold face!

I don't know, I never tried that.

Re: hebrew: bold face odd when using the monospace font.

[Yuri Khan]

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 2:55 AM, Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> wrote:

> I usually use the following font
>
>   (custom-set-faces
>    '(default ((t (:family "DejaVu Sans Mono" :foundry "unknown" :slant
>                           normal :weight normal :height 143 :width normal))))))
>
> Which gives also nice results for Hebrew.

I find that hard to believe. On my machine DejaVu Sans Mono does not
have Hebrew coverage. Pressing C-u C-x = on Hebrew text reveals that
Emacs substitutes DejaVu Sans, which does cover Hebrew and looks ok in
bold, but is not monospaced. Depending on your configuration, another
font may be substituted, possibly one that does not have a bold
weight.

Re: hebrew: bold face odd when using the monospace font.

[Uwe Brauer]

>>> "Yuri" == Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> writes:

    > On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 2:55 AM, Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> wrote:
    >> I usually use the following font
    >> 
    >> (custom-set-faces
    >> '(default ((t (:family "DejaVu Sans Mono" :foundry "unknown" :slant
    >> normal :weight normal :height 143 :width normal))))))
    >> 
    >> Which gives also nice results for Hebrew.

    > I find that hard to believe. On my machine DejaVu Sans Mono does not
    > have Hebrew coverage. Pressing C-u C-x = on Hebrew text reveals that
    > Emacs substitutes DejaVu Sans, which does cover Hebrew and looks ok in
    > bold, but is not monospaced. Depending on your configuration, another
    > font may be substituted, possibly one that does not have a bold
    > weight.

I am confused. What do you find hard to believe? My setting? The
screenshots?

Here is the result  C-u C-x = on a hebrew mem sofit

             position: 1282 of 1284 (100%), restriction: <64-1285>, column: 3
            character: ם‎ (displayed as ם‎) (codepoint 1501, #o2735, #x5dd)
    preferred charset: unicode (Unicode (ISO10646))
code point in charset: 0x05DD
               script: hebrew
               syntax: w 	which means: word
             category: .:Base, R:Right-to-left (strong)
             to input: type "M" with hebrew-phonetic-qwerty input method
          buffer code: #xD7 #x9D
            file code: #xD7 #x9D (encoded by coding system utf-8-emacs)
              display: by this font (glyph code)
    xft:-unknown-DejaVu Sans-normal-normal-normal-*-19-*-*-*-*-0-iso10646-1 (#x533)

Character code properties: customize what to show
  name: HEBREW LETTER FINAL MEM
  general-category: Lo (Letter, Other)
  decomposition: (1501) ('ם')

Re: hebrew: bold face odd when using the monospace font.

[Uwe Brauer]

>>> "Eli" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

   >> From: Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es>
   >> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 16:02:13 +0000
   >> 
   >> Ok so it is not possible to have the dejaVu monospace font for non bold face,
   >> but a different font for bold face!

   > I don't know, I never tried that.


BTW the bold face font (trying out bold face tav)
seems to be
    xft:-unknown-Linux Biolinum Keyboard O-bold-normal-normal-*-19-*-*-*-*-0-iso10646-1 (#x1D7)

Where it is configured in emacs that this font is used?

Here is the complete output


             position: 36171 of 36172 (100%), column: 4
            character: ת‎ (displayed as ת‎) (codepoint 1514, #o2752, #x5ea)
    preferred charset: unicode (Unicode (ISO10646))
code point in charset: 0x05EA
               script: hebrew
               syntax: w 	which means: word
             category: .:Base, R:Right-to-left (strong)
             to input: type "t" with hebrew-phonetic-qwerty input method
          buffer code: #xD7 #xAA
            file code: #xD7 #xAA (encoded by coding system utf-8-unix)
              display: by this font (glyph code)
    xft:-unknown-Linux Biolinum Keyboard O-bold-normal-normal-*-19-*-*-*-*-0-iso10646-1 (#x1D7)

Character code properties: customize what to show
  name: HEBREW LETTER TAV
  general-category: Lo (Letter, Other)
  decomposition: (1514) ('ת')

There are text properties here:
  face                 (bold)
  font-lock-multiline  t
  fontified            t
  org-emphasis         t

[back]

Re: hebrew: bold face odd when using the monospace font.

[Yuri Khan]

On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 2:18 AM, Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> wrote:

>     > On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 2:55 AM, Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> wrote:
>     >> I usually use the following font
>     >>
>     >> (custom-set-faces
>     >> '(default ((t (:family "DejaVu Sans Mono" :foundry "unknown" :slant
>     >> normal :weight normal :height 143 :width normal))))))
>     >>
>     >> Which gives also nice results for Hebrew.
>
>     > I find that hard to believe. On my machine DejaVu Sans Mono does not
>     > have Hebrew coverage. Pressing C-u C-x = on Hebrew text reveals that
>     > Emacs substitutes DejaVu Sans, which does cover Hebrew and looks ok in
>     > bold, but is not monospaced. Depending on your configuration, another
>     > font may be substituted, possibly one that does not have a bold
>     > weight.
>
> I am confused. What do you find hard to believe? My setting? The
> screenshots?

That it is your setting of DejaVu Sans Mono that gives you nice
results for Hebrew. Since this font has no Hebrew coverage, any
results for Hebrew, nice or otherwise, come from programs substituting
another font.

> Here is the result  C-u C-x = on a hebrew mem sofit
>
>              position: 1282 of 1284 (100%), restriction: <64-1285>, column: 3
>             character: ם‎ (displayed as ם‎) (codepoint 1501, #o2735, #x5dd)
[…]
>               display: by this font (glyph code)
>     xft:-unknown-DejaVu Sans-normal-normal-normal-*-19-*-*-*-*-0-iso10646-1 (#x533)

So here you are: you get DejaVu Sans, not DejaVu Sans Mono, for Hebrew.

Why Emacs gives you Linux Biolinum Keyboard O for bold is not clear.
You might need to read about fontsets:

https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Fontsets.html#Fontsets

The unicode-fonts library provides a more user-friendly interface for
configuring font fallback, but may slow down Emacs startup
considerably:

https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/UnicodeFonts

Re: hebrew: bold face odd when using the monospace font.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es>
> Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2016 20:17:41 +0000
> 
> BTW the bold face font (trying out bold face tav)
> seems to be
>     xft:-unknown-Linux Biolinum Keyboard O-bold-normal-normal-*-19-*-*-*-*-0-iso10646-1 (#x1D7)
> 
> Where it is configured in emacs that this font is used?

In the fallback section of the default fontset.  See the output of
describe-fontset.  I'm guessing that Emacs uses the first font it
finds that claims support for iso10646-1 (a.k.a. "Unicode") character
set.  If you don't like the results, you should either tailor your
fontset, or install/uninstall fonts to force Emacs DTRT.

Re: hebrew: bold face odd when using the monospace font.

[Andreas Schwab]

On Aug 12 2016, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> In the fallback section of the default fontset.  See the output of
> describe-fontset.  I'm guessing that Emacs uses the first font it
> finds that claims support for iso10646-1 (a.k.a. "Unicode") character
> set.  If you don't like the results, you should either tailor your
> fontset, or install/uninstall fonts to force Emacs DTRT.

You don't have to uninstall the font, you can also ignore a font via
fontconfig (with <rejectfont>).

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: hebrew: bold face odd when using the monospace font.

[Uwe Brauer]

   > On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 2:18 AM, Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> wrote:

   > That it is your setting of DejaVu Sans Mono that gives you nice
   > results for Hebrew. Since this font has no Hebrew coverage, any
   > results for Hebrew, nice or otherwise, come from programs substituting
   > another font.

   > […]

   > So here you are: you get DejaVu Sans, not DejaVu Sans Mono, for Hebrew.

Yep but strangely enough for no hebrew I obtain

,----
|              position: 36166 of 36174 (100%), column: 0
|             character: A (displayed as A) (codepoint 65, #o101, #x41)
|     preferred charset: ascii (ASCII (ISO646 IRV))
| code point in charset: 0x41
|                script: latin
|                syntax: w 	which means: word
|              category: .:Base, L:Left-to-right (strong), a:ASCII, l:Latin, r:Roman
|              to input: type "C-x 8 RET 41" or "C-x 8 RET LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A"
|           buffer code: #x41
|             file code: #x41 (encoded by coding system utf-8-unix)
|               display: by this font (glyph code)
|     xft:-unknown-DejaVu Sans Mono-normal-normal-normal-*-19-*-*-*-m-0-iso10646-1 (#x24)
`----



   > Why Emacs gives you Linux Biolinum Keyboard O for bold is not clear.
   > You might need to read about fontsets:

   > https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Fontsets.html#Fontsets

thanks


   > The unicode-fonts library provides a more user-friendly interface for
   > configuring font fallback, but may slow down Emacs startup
   > considerably:

   > https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/UnicodeFonts



thanks

Re: hebrew: bold face odd when using the monospace font.

[Uwe Brauer]

   > On Aug 12 2016, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

   > You don't have to uninstall the font, you can also ignore a font via
   > fontconfig (with <rejectfont>).

My fontconfig  Kubuntu 14.04) contains various programs such as fc-list
etc. Which of these you have in mind?

Uwe 
   > Andreas.

Re: hebrew: bold face odd when using the monospace font.

[Andreas Schwab]

On Aug 12 2016, Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> wrote:

>    > On Aug 12 2016, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>
>    > You don't have to uninstall the font, you can also ignore a font via
>    > fontconfig (with <rejectfont>).
>
> My fontconfig  Kubuntu 14.04) contains various programs such as fc-list
> etc. Which of these you have in mind?

See /etc/fonts/conf.d.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: hebrew: bold face odd when using the monospace font.

[Uwe Brauer]

>>> "Andreas" == Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org> writes:

   > On Aug 12 2016, Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> wrote:
   >> > On Aug 12 2016, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
   >> 
   >> > You don't have to uninstall the font, you can also ignore a font via
   >> > fontconfig (with <rejectfont>).
   >> 
   >> My fontconfig  Kubuntu 14.04) contains various programs such as fc-list
   >> etc. Which of these you have in mind?

   > See /etc/fonts/conf.d.

I still don't get it
/etc/fonts

Contains

rwxr-xr-x   2 root root 4,0K jun 29 17:23 conf.avail
drwxr-xr-x   2 root root 4,0K jun 29 17:18 conf.d
-rw-r--r--   1 root root 5,4K jun  5  2014 fonts.conf

So I presume the file fonts.conf is what you meant,
but the file contains

	DO NOT EDIT THIS FILE.
	IT WILL BE REPLACED WHEN FONTCONFIG IS UPDATED.
	LOCAL CHANGES BELONG IN 'local.conf'.

	The intent of this standard configuration file is to be adequate for
	most environments.  If you have a reasonably normal environment and
	have found problems with this configuration, they are probably
	things that others will also want fixed.  Please submit any
	problems to the fontconfig bugzilla system located at fontconfig.org

	Note that the normal 'make install' procedure for fontconfig is to
	replace any existing fonts.conf file with the new version.  Place
	any local customizations in local.conf which this file references.

In any case I don't understand its syntax, could you give me an example
of how to exclude

   xft:-unknown-Linux Biolinum Keyboard O-bold-normal-normal-*-19-*-*-*-*-0-iso10646-1 (#x1D7)


thanks

Uwe 

Re: hebrew: bold face odd when using the monospace font.

[Yuri Khan]

On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> wrote:

>    > So here you are: you get DejaVu Sans, not DejaVu Sans Mono, for Hebrew.
>
> Yep but strangely enough for no hebrew I obtain
>
> ,----
> |             character: A (displayed as A) (codepoint 65, #o101, #x41)
> |               display: by this font (glyph code)
> |     xft:-unknown-DejaVu Sans Mono-normal-normal-normal-*-19-*-*-*-m-0-iso10646-1 (#x24)
> `----

Nothing strange here: DejaVu Sans Mono *does* cover Latin, so when you
ask for DejaVu Sans Mono, you get what you ask for.

On the other hand, with Hebrew, you ask for DejaVu Sans Mono, you get
another font that covers Hebrew. (The alternative would be that you
get exactly what you ask for and any characters that the font does not
cover would be displayed as empty squares, � replacement characters or
other unintelligible things.)