From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: hw Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: delete-selection-mode as default Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 00:34:11 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <874lev3bq4.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <83k1nxvm5j.fsf@gnu.org> <87sh2ih0bp.fsf@fastmail.fm> <770f48a8-664a-40ae-8e03-19f6aad248b6@default> <20180910181615.GA4829@ACM> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536707885 19960 195.159.176.226 (11 Sep 2018 23:18:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 23:18:05 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: spacibba@aol.com, Joost Kremers , Noam Postavsky , emacs-devel@gnu.org, Alan Mackenzie , Eli Zaretskii , phillip.lord@russet.org.uk To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 12 01:18:00 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fzrux-00053P-OG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 01:18:00 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59925 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fzrx3-0007GD-WF for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2018 19:20:10 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:46146) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fzrvB-0005xO-Hk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2018 19:18:14 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fzroR-0006Gd-BU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2018 19:11:16 -0400 Original-Received: from mo6-p02-ob.smtp.rzone.de ([2a01:238:20a:202:5302::12]:14501) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fzroQ-0006Ea-0J; Tue, 11 Sep 2018 19:11:14 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1536707472; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=cAnUOvq8zD7QQiqRkbDPKcjk+LM7wllDrBHTdFThtLU=; b=VguFzFohuaK4IrAbwf3Pd1aZBR4+7TXlaXTCRW0bopn4B5RBuUwXANtZj3EUuFXzKM ABXio9ko11rMJFXYHjx91C88g0NQBWMiu0i0BhzVNJ07Quj34IVXlUfr5yatc7Mye8bA S7oVIzASOSWRKtY4uqvNcThFyChrLGbw6P1TxmoxIJmoWeZ09QFIYBb9P5T3sp2/nfFJ zF16e57xEsWgOB+BV9LJDm/PvDFWKuYFG7Y+Xfqb6q4RtVWat759IYHz/7SKWElOgd6V DqNhii8MZUCr44J2rZnHwDmpTBdF0aHtoGGYvA66NVP/kncc6fCAVW0HdOO58fBYOk1e JfKw== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+AVdIIwXjneEe9k=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Original-Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.0 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e03b99u8BNAkNv6 (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Wed, 12 Sep 2018 01:10:46 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1fzrny-0001zz-1A; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 01:10:46 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Mon, 10 Sep 2018 13:36:29 -0700 (PDT)") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2a01:238:20a:202:5302::12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229685 Archived-At: Drew Adams writes: > [...] > > Users should not get an active region when they don't > want it, i.e., when they don't want to act on the region. > And they should be able to easily get an active region > when they do want to act on the region. Highlighting regions should be separated from whether they are active or not, and I don't want hidden regions, either. Currently even when a region is not active (it is a hidden region because it is not highlighted), you can do something with it, so users always get an "active" region even when they don't want one. It's only a bit less active than it is when it is highlighted. > [...] > I suspect that things are very different for you, and I > suspect it is because of `C-x C-x' activating the region > even though you have no intention of acting on it. Exchanging point and mark is a purely navigational thing, and somehow the activation and deactivation of hidden(!) regions which may have been modified because point may have moved since a region was selected last time(!) has been mixed into that. That is ill advised. > [...] > I feel like region activation by `C-x C-x' was maybe foisted > on people who never wanted or expected to do anything > with an active region. Do you mean they would rather do things with hidden regions? I never want to do that. > In any case, region activation has nothing inherently to do with > swapping point and mark. Right, so why not separate navigational functions from highlighting and regions? Use point and mark purely for navigation, set a selection-start-marker with C-spc and a selection-end-marker with another C-spc (or whatever key binding is appropriate for it). The region is between these markers, and you can have multiple regions in the same buffer. Do something with a region, and its markers are forgotten unless you use a prefix. Have a key binding to jump around between the regions in a buffer, and you can tell Emacs with which of them you want to do something by moving point into it. If you want to do the same thing with multiple regions, move point into one after another and make them "sticky" for operation, or mark them right after selecting them. That might make a lot of things much simpler, and we wouldn't have to feel uneasy about the hidden regions all the time. > [...] > There you go. That's probably the right thing to do for > someone who doesn't want d-s-m behavior. But then > do you have to monkey around with temporary t-m-m, > or do you just not bother, ever, with having an active > region? I'm guessing the latter. It can make it difficult to do things supposed to be limited to a region. I might disable t-m-m if I could see what I have selected with it disabled and monkey. I never use C-x C-x, so it doesn't make a difference otherwise, which leaves nothing but disadvantages to having t-m-m disabled. > [...]