From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Philip K." Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Survey: Toolbars Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 18:07:34 +0100 Message-ID: <874kknhuax.fsf@posteo.net> References: <87o8iv3ac3.fsf@gnus.org> <560BF60C-2358-47C7-ADDB-5637047B2942@gnu.support> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="5599"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux) Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Jean Louis Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Dec 15 18:11:28 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kpDrE-0001N1-Gi for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 18:11:28 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41512 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpDrD-0001G5-Iy for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 12:11:27 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50472) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpDns-0007mD-4b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 12:08:00 -0500 Original-Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:50326) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpDnp-0002KT-8V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 12:07:59 -0500 Original-Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C97CD160060 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 18:07:36 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1608052056; bh=KsnftC9TdPs9KS8eCIYXr50H7QjzRUe1vz7kfk3de5o=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=ZjyM5i50PV3oen5wkZiSN3IPvZaf/07yfhFq6Ep5DffnLNOJwBNeH1NTJXkpladUf nZl14or3vLDG7EzSgce/d8i66M7AwE7hVOArqXiFESiDCs5Cm032SX0UCNvtWFP6nT RRSORVN/3Nbl64iT4bAWfUWwKUKhx42Npr6EIObDnOUaxa54nxROlA9BBbRy1Aur8S Vom7xSX1MJM3C4xrpFvdHa/yL8sjuBXh9po7GpFS6HW8zC/JMm3Y2EOkN/I9/cknP9 flqjbiupf7WRrRF/K/qzycO5eJBAZ89SrddxSyTYWDqnS/uXcxkq5jP8tIoTyNNMAL FoiFbuuQHU7PA== Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4CwPnz6xp2z9rxd; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 18:07:35 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: <560BF60C-2358-47C7-ADDB-5637047B2942@gnu.support> (Jean Louis's message of "Tue, 15 Dec 2020 10:00:15 +0000") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.65; envelope-from=philipk@posteo.net; helo=mout01.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:260884 Archived-At: Jean Louis writes: > Only small subset of users answered the survey. Emacs is used by much larger number of people. One can see that survey says that users who did answer the survey are on level higher. > > If you disable the toolbar you are doing it for those who answered the survey, not for those coming to Emacs, larger number of users. > > If I rememberv well survey also shows that large number of users use > it since shorter time like one year meaning that larger number of > users drop in the first year. Finding that cause and improving there > would keep those users. I guess it would be interesting to also find out what the connection is between newer users and toolbar usage. I personally think that the menu-bar is more than enough (though also not necessary), and that the toolbar is inefficient, and even if it were, it's underutilized. People who use the TUI mode or "distributions" also usually don't have to disable it, so that might also be a factor that has to be considered. > On December 15, 2020 5:30:20 AM UTC, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote: >>In that mega thread about modernising Emacs, there was a lot of talk >>about getting more data about how people use Emacs, and then... do >>something accordingly. >> >>Behold: https://emacssurvey.org/2020/ >> >>So here's the first thread about actionable takeaways from the survey. >>(Consider all arguments about the survey not being representative as >>having been made already.) >> >>Of 7.3K respondents, 5K disable toolbars, which is more than two >>thirds. So perhaps toolbars should default to off? I know toolbars >>were all the rage in the 90s, but that's apparently not the case now. >> >>Opinions? > > > Jean > > -- Philip K.