From: Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, larsi@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Consistent face for keys in *Help* and `substitute-command-keys'
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 19:16:27 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <874khjq6p8.fsf@mail.linkov.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmkdmp++Br9dkHRV6xJBNu589DY2nvFPgXCVNGfO4Q3yFw@mail.gmail.com> (Stefan Kangas's message of "Tue, 9 Mar 2021 17:38:12 -0800")
>> I completely agree. I retained "grey85" that was used for foreground,
>> but it's not suitable for background. But OTOH, "grey95" is almost
>> indistinguishable from the default white background.
>
> The change is fine, but I have a nit/question:
>
> On my screen grey95 is clearly distinguishable while grey90 is too dark
> for comfort. You report something quite different from that, which
> makes me think that this is perhaps not simply down to taste or
> mere subjective opinion.
When the contrast with the default background is too low, then users
will miss the highlighting, so when the user doesn't see that it has
a different color then it will look as if there is no highlighting at all.
But when it's slightly darker, then I see no problem for users.
So it seems better to have a slightly darker color than to let users
miss highlighting.
To decide what would be a good default, you need to take into accounts
opinions of the majority of users, but also possible problems
that the default could cause to the minority of users.
> Could this be associated with things like differences in luminosity of
> our physical monitors, brightness/contrast settings, X gamma settings
> and what have you?
Maybe, I tried grey95, but when the prompt us at the bottom of the screen:
foo changed on disk; really edit the buffer? (y, n, r or C-h)
highlighting of single letters is indistinguishable from the background.
> Is there a way to find an objective measure to decide the better default
> here? Or should we just make both of us slightly (un)?happy by setting
> the color to e.g. grey92, assuming that the mean between our findings is
> the most scientific we can hope to get and will work somewhat okay-ish
> everywhere, and call it a day?
With grey92 the situation is slightly better.
>> GitHub and GitLab use "grey90" for light and "grey25" for dark,
>> so I changed now accordingly.
>
> BTW, where do you find "grey90"? They seem to use a lighter background
> than that on the pages I've been looking at.
I deduced this color approximately because on github repos
shades of gray are achieved using transparency.
> Here I see #fafbfc for keys, which is between gray98 and gray99, with an
> added outline:
>
> https://docs.github.com/en/github/getting-started-with-github/keyboard-shortcuts
Indeed, with a border, it's hard to miss highlighting.
> Here I see #f0f0f0 for keys, which is gray94, with no added outline:
>
> https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/shortcuts.html
Here there is no border, so they need to use darker colors,
darker than gray95.
So please decide what the default color would be more preferable:
with a border a lighter color could be used, without a border
a darker is needed.
>> When trying to use the style :background "grey90"
>> :box (:line-width 2 :style released-button)
>> the look is much nicer, but at the cost of wasting more vertical space
>> for higher lines.
>
> The look of that is not too bad. It looks slightly dated perhaps (the
> latest trend is to keep things flat rather than fake 3D) but at least it
> is extremely clear. It is arguably a more user-friendly choice.
Then it's possible to use flat with rounded borders, without 3D effect.
> I'm not sure that I notice any wasted vertical pixels (we are talking 1
> or 2 of them or something like that, right?) but I didn't measure it.
2 pixels (top and bottom) for line-width 1, 4 pixels for line-width 2.
Especially undesirable when this will increase the height of the minibuffer.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-03-10 17:16 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 188+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-02-21 12:06 Proposal for an improved `help-for-help' Stefan Kangas
2021-02-21 16:46 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-02-21 17:31 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-21 18:17 ` Drew Adams
2021-02-21 17:42 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-02-21 18:18 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-02-21 19:49 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-24 1:40 ` Consistent face for keys in *Help* and `substitute-command-keys' Stefan Kangas
2021-02-24 2:24 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-02-24 4:44 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-24 22:01 ` Drew Adams
2021-02-25 1:25 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-25 6:43 ` Drew Adams
2021-02-25 15:06 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-25 16:22 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-24 14:00 ` Basil L. Contovounesios
2021-02-24 16:35 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-24 19:09 ` Basil L. Contovounesios
2021-02-25 2:11 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-24 14:29 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-02-24 16:46 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-25 2:26 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-25 14:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-25 16:45 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-25 18:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-25 18:48 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-25 19:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-25 19:47 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-25 20:32 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-04 6:24 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-04 14:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-05 16:18 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-05 17:07 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-03-05 17:58 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-06 16:44 ` Drew Adams
2021-03-06 17:04 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-06 17:39 ` Drew Adams
2021-03-05 18:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-05 19:28 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-05 20:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-05 20:39 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-05 20:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-05 21:43 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-06 7:33 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-06 16:25 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-06 17:32 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-06 18:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-07 3:03 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-07 6:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-07 7:26 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-07 7:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-08 9:17 ` Juri Linkov
2021-03-08 11:10 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-08 17:43 ` Juri Linkov
2021-03-10 1:38 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-10 17:16 ` Juri Linkov [this message]
2021-03-10 19:35 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-10 19:50 ` Juri Linkov
2021-03-10 19:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-11 0:46 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-11 3:09 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-03-11 6:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-11 13:25 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-03-11 13:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-13 14:11 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-11 6:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-13 14:27 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-13 15:16 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-13 15:59 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-11 0:45 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-15 9:19 ` Juri Linkov
2021-03-16 2:37 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-16 23:20 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-03-08 15:39 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-03-08 16:40 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-08 17:43 ` Juri Linkov
2021-03-09 7:38 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-09 9:05 ` Juri Linkov
2021-02-25 19:14 ` Drew Adams
2021-02-25 19:44 ` martin rudalics
2021-02-24 16:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-25 1:56 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-25 14:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-21 17:45 ` Proposal for an improved `help-for-help' Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-21 18:20 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-02-21 18:48 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-21 19:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-21 20:04 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-21 20:16 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-02-21 23:27 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-22 16:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-13 16:26 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-14 2:37 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-03-14 23:05 ` Drew Adams
2021-03-14 23:53 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-15 1:54 ` Drew Adams
2021-04-07 15:18 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-07 16:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-07 22:54 ` Howard Melman
2021-04-08 7:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-08 12:57 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-08 13:35 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-08 13:50 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-08 15:27 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-08 15:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-08 17:16 ` Howard Melman
2021-04-08 22:52 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-09 6:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-08 14:08 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-04-08 14:50 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-08 15:02 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-04-08 15:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-08 15:45 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-04-08 15:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-08 17:55 ` Howard Melman
2021-04-09 15:42 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-08 18:48 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-08 23:23 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-08 23:35 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-08 23:41 ` Howard Melman
2021-04-07 16:42 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-07 18:33 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-07 19:50 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-07 22:56 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-07 23:26 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-08 12:42 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-07 19:55 ` Juri Linkov
2021-04-24 13:21 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-24 13:27 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-24 16:44 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-24 23:48 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 7:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 9:30 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 10:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 11:49 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 12:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 16:26 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-25 10:20 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-25 10:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 10:46 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 11:23 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-25 15:18 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 15:28 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-30 17:39 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-30 20:02 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-30 20:36 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-30 22:09 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-05-02 10:23 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-05-02 18:57 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-30 17:34 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 12:47 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-25 13:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 13:09 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 16:22 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-25 16:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 13:16 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-25 13:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 13:32 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-25 13:44 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 13:58 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-25 11:12 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-25 15:47 ` DEL vs Backspace (was: Proposal for an improved `help-for-help') Stefan Monnier
2021-04-25 16:49 ` DEL vs Backspace Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-25 17:25 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-25 17:50 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-26 0:45 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-26 11:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-26 11:48 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-26 4:41 ` Richard Stallman
2021-04-27 20:56 ` Proposal for an improved `help-for-help' Stefan Kangas
2021-04-27 23:15 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-24 17:18 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-24 20:32 ` Juri Linkov
2021-04-25 10:00 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-07 17:56 ` Howard Melman
2021-04-07 18:21 ` John Yates
2021-04-07 22:56 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-07 22:41 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-07 23:15 ` Howard Melman
2021-04-08 12:57 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-21 19:27 ` Howard Melman
2021-02-22 15:25 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-02-22 10:01 ` Yuri Khan
2021-02-22 15:25 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 15:11 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 15:34 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-25 18:43 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 14:06 ` Dmitry Gutov
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