unofficial mirror of emacs-devel@gnu.org 
 help / color / mirror / code / Atom feed
* Leaving Freenode behind
@ 2021-06-21 20:24 Stefan Kangas
  2021-06-21 20:34 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Kangas @ 2021-06-21 20:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Emacs developers

As you may have heard, the Freenode IRC network has been taken over by
a hostile corporate entity.[1][2]  The #emacs community has already
moved.[3]

I suggest we stop promoting it in Emacs, and instead promote the
community run Libera Chat.[4]  This would mean removing most
references and links to Freenode in our sources and documentation.

Are there any objections to this plan?  If not, I will be happy to go
ahead and make the necessary changes.

Footnotes:
[1] https://www.kline.sh/
[2] https://fuchsnet.ch/privat/fn-resign-letter.txt
[3] https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsChannel#h5o-9
[4] https://libera.chat/



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: Leaving Freenode behind
  2021-06-21 20:24 Leaving Freenode behind Stefan Kangas
@ 2021-06-21 20:34 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  2021-07-04  5:27   ` Amin Bandali
  2021-06-21 23:38 ` Jean Louis
  2021-06-22  0:06 ` Richard Stallman
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen @ 2021-06-21 20:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Stefan Kangas; +Cc: Amin Bandali, Emacs developers

Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:

> Are there any objections to this plan?  If not, I will be happy to go
> ahead and make the necessary changes.

This is bug#49004 -- I thought Amin had already already pushed these
changes, but I guess not?

Amin?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: Leaving Freenode behind
  2021-06-21 20:24 Leaving Freenode behind Stefan Kangas
  2021-06-21 20:34 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
@ 2021-06-21 23:38 ` Jean Louis
  2021-06-22  0:06 ` Richard Stallman
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Jean Louis @ 2021-06-21 23:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Stefan Kangas; +Cc: Emacs developers

* Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> [2021-06-21 23:26]:
> As you may have heard, the Freenode IRC network has been taken over by
> a hostile corporate entity.[1][2]  The #emacs community has already
> moved.[3]
> 
> I suggest we stop promoting it in Emacs, and instead promote the
> community run Libera Chat.[4]  This would mean removing most
> references and links to Freenode in our sources and documentation.
> 
> Are there any objections to this plan?  If not, I will be happy to go
> ahead and make the necessary changes.

Maybe you have to research that subject better. What you mention as
"hostile corporate entity" is the same entity supporting and
organizing money for Freenode to exist for years. You made rather
harsh statement IMHO.

How I see it, their drama does not belong to emacs-devel.

I also think that everybody is free to use any service and emacs-devel
should not promote neither this or that network as being better or
invalidate a network as being hostile.

Make a channel wherever you wish and let people choose without
emotional wars.

I am surprised how you people start acting as judges where there is no
case.

Remember that the "hostile entity" never changed its attitude towards
support of the free software.

Instead of saying "thanks" for all of the years, you spread
misinformation here.

Btw, there are 19200 users... does that mean you are dropping people
for mis-judgment?

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: Leaving Freenode behind
  2021-06-21 20:24 Leaving Freenode behind Stefan Kangas
  2021-06-21 20:34 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  2021-06-21 23:38 ` Jean Louis
@ 2021-06-22  0:06 ` Richard Stallman
  2021-06-22  4:35   ` Stefan Kangas
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2021-06-22  0:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Stefan Kangas; +Cc: emacs-devel

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

The GNU Project is moving its IRC channels to Libera, so it would be good
good to adjust Emacs to this.

I do have to correct one detail.  Libera is a company, so the term
"community-run" might be misleading.

That is not a criticism of Libera, though.  In fact, Freenode has been
a company all along, including when it was good to use.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: Leaving Freenode behind
  2021-06-22  0:06 ` Richard Stallman
@ 2021-06-22  4:35   ` Stefan Kangas
  2021-06-22  6:39     ` Christopher Dimech
                       ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Kangas @ 2021-06-22  4:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Richard Stallman; +Cc: Emacs developers

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> I do have to correct one detail.  Libera is a company, so the term
> "community-run" might be misleading.

This is incorrect, as far as I can tell.

Libera is, according to themselves: "a Swedish nonprofit organisation
with organisation number 802535-6448, feel free to read our
bylaws".[1]

Looking up the Swedish organization LIBERA CHAT registered with that
number, it is an "ideell förening" (roughly: "volunteer driven
association", or "non-profit" in English), which is most definitely
not a company.  It is subject to all the normal regulations you would
expect for a non-profit: no one can "own" or "sell" it, it is
controlled by its annual general meeting, etc.

Footnotes:
[1] https://libera.chat/about



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Leaving Freenode behind
  2021-06-22  4:35   ` Stefan Kangas
@ 2021-06-22  6:39     ` Christopher Dimech
  2021-06-22 20:43     ` Jean Louis
  2021-06-24  0:53     ` Richard Stallman
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Christopher Dimech @ 2021-06-22  6:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Stefan Kangas; +Cc: Richard Stallman, Emacs developers


It is unfortunate to think that the moment one markets something,
then it is corrupt.  There is nothing wrong with a business or an
industry.  Business means that something that someone needs, someone
decides to provide.  As long as it is a legitimate business and people
are paying their taxes.  Of course for a cost, because if it needs to be
sustained, there has to be a cost.  

Till people give up this attitude, free software will not spread
across.  Free software must go to every village if the urban people
pay for it.  That is my mission and I will take it there.



> Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 4:35 PM
> From: "Stefan Kangas" <stefan@marxist.se>
> To: "Richard Stallman" <rms@gnu.org>
> Cc: "Emacs developers" <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> Subject: Re: Leaving Freenode behind
>
> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > I do have to correct one detail.  Libera is a company, so the term
> > "community-run" might be misleading.
> 
> This is incorrect, as far as I can tell.
> 
> Libera is, according to themselves: "a Swedish nonprofit organisation
> with organisation number 802535-6448, feel free to read our
> bylaws".[1]
> 
> Looking up the Swedish organization LIBERA CHAT registered with that
> number, it is an "ideell förening" (roughly: "volunteer driven
> association", or "non-profit" in English), which is most definitely
> not a company.  It is subject to all the normal regulations you would
> expect for a non-profit: no one can "own" or "sell" it, it is
> controlled by its annual general meeting, etc.
> 
> Footnotes:
> [1] https://libera.chat/about
> 
>



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: Leaving Freenode behind
  2021-06-22  4:35   ` Stefan Kangas
  2021-06-22  6:39     ` Christopher Dimech
@ 2021-06-22 20:43     ` Jean Louis
  2021-06-24  0:53     ` Richard Stallman
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Jean Louis @ 2021-06-22 20:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Stefan Kangas; +Cc: Richard Stallman, Emacs developers

* Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> [2021-06-22 08:15]:
> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > I do have to correct one detail.  Libera is a company, so the term
> > "community-run" might be misleading.
> 
> This is incorrect, as far as I can tell.
> 
> Libera is, according to themselves: "a Swedish nonprofit organisation
> with organisation number 802535-6448, feel free to read our
> bylaws".[1]
> 
> Looking up the Swedish organization LIBERA CHAT registered with that
> number, it is an "ideell förening" (roughly: "volunteer driven
> association", or "non-profit" in English), which is most definitely
> not a company.  It is subject to all the normal regulations you would
> expect for a non-profit: no one can "own" or "sell" it, it is
> controlled by its annual general meeting, etc.
> 
> Footnotes:
> [1] https://libera.chat/about

When speaking of Swedish companies, have registered quite a few of
such for our clients. They are all registered with Bolagsverket.se. 

What you wish to say is that it is a non-profit type of an entity.
You mix the general term "company" to be only the company with
shareholders or members with shares.

In many countries "company" is used for any kind of type of the
entity, including for a partnership, including for non-incorporated
associations and so on. So it is in Sweden. In fact, when you wish to
search for a any type of a company you are offered label that includes
the word "company". 

Even if a non-profit is named "non-profit" the only difference is that
profits are not distributed as dividends to shareholders. Non-profit
though can pay very high salaries to its board, employees and hire
outside companies where money may go. Everything else if anything
remains, is used for re-investing into non-profit purposes.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: Leaving Freenode behind
  2021-06-22  4:35   ` Stefan Kangas
  2021-06-22  6:39     ` Christopher Dimech
  2021-06-22 20:43     ` Jean Louis
@ 2021-06-24  0:53     ` Richard Stallman
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2021-06-24  0:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Stefan Kangas; +Cc: emacs-devel

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > I do have to correct one detail.  Libera is a company, so the term
  > > "community-run" might be misleading.

  > This is incorrect, as far as I can tell.

  > Libera is, according to themselves: "a Swedish nonprofit organisation
  > with organisation number 802535-6448, feel free to read our
  > bylaws".[1]

I stand corrected.

However, I continue to recall that Freenode has been a company for
many years, and operated acceptably until very recently.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: Leaving Freenode behind
  2021-06-21 20:34 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
@ 2021-07-04  5:27   ` Amin Bandali
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Amin Bandali @ 2021-07-04  5:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Lars Ingebrigtsen; +Cc: Stefan Kangas, Emacs developers

Hi Lars, all,

Lars Ingebrigtsen writes:

> Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:
>
>> Are there any objections to this plan?  If not, I will be happy to go
>> ahead and make the necessary changes.
>
> This is bug#49004 -- I thought Amin had already already pushed these
> changes, but I guess not?
>
> Amin?

Indeed, that's bug#49004, but I hadn't gotten a chance to make the
small tweaks that I'd wanted.  I did that a bit earlier tonight, and
pushed it to 'emacs-27' and then merged it into 'master' as well.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2021-07-04  5:27 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 9+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2021-06-21 20:24 Leaving Freenode behind Stefan Kangas
2021-06-21 20:34 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-07-04  5:27   ` Amin Bandali
2021-06-21 23:38 ` Jean Louis
2021-06-22  0:06 ` Richard Stallman
2021-06-22  4:35   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-06-22  6:39     ` Christopher Dimech
2021-06-22 20:43     ` Jean Louis
2021-06-24  0:53     ` Richard Stallman

Code repositories for project(s) associated with this public inbox

	https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git

This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for read-only IMAP folder(s) and NNTP newsgroup(s).