From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Amin Bandali Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: master ff4de1b: Fix quoting style in Lisp comments Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 09:18:50 -0400 Message-ID: <874kajjq6d.fsf@gnu.org> References: <20210912165141.9491.52637@vcs0.savannah.gnu.org> <47d6e9a6-f334-eda9-2e08-0a946e51fc4a@yandex.ru> <83v934emk7.fsf@gnu.org> <87sfy8d7oo.fsf@gnus.org> <9194fc93-fb9c-000f-a35a-321ddd259893@gmx.at> <8735q5yi63.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <83czp9by3s.fsf@gnu.org> <05cbffe0-f89b-ff54-64f5-cd1d11bac4f5@yandex.ru> <831r5pbt7j.fsf@gnu.org> <83wnnhacy4.fsf@gnu.org> <40937e22-994f-466c-87be-4f70a522118a@yandex.ru> <83pmt790cz.fsf@gnu.org> <41b90a60-04ab-8ef1-24ee-ac30d39640aa@yandex.ru> <837dff8niq.fsf@gnu.org> <8a9a14b9-c562-8813-daea-28108f3173f3@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="33659"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: rms@gnu.org, stefan@marxist.se, juri@linkov.net, rudalics@gmx.at, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org, larsi@gnus.org To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 17 15:20:12 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mRDmm-0008av-Bj for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 15:20:12 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43550 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mRDmh-00085D-HN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 09:20:08 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50126) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mRDlb-0007Nu-JY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 09:18:59 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:57618) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mRDlZ-0000Ek-QN; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 09:18:57 -0400 Original-Received: from [2607:fea8:3fdf:f2d9:54b4:66a3:cf77:3162] (port=39768 helo=langa) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mRDlT-00057y-JN; Fri, 17 Sep 2021 09:18:51 -0400 In-Reply-To: <8a9a14b9-c562-8813-daea-28108f3173f3@yandex.ru> X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:274872 Archived-At: Dmitry Gutov writes: > On 17.09.2021 14:11, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >>> Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, stefan@marxist.se, juri@linkov.net, >>> rudalics@gmx.at, larsi@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org >>> From: Dmitry Gutov >>> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:44:34 +0300 >>> >>> On 17.09.2021 09:34, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >>>> E.g., I dislike the decision to remove >>>> facemenu and its useful (for me) key bindings: should I now start a >>>> lobbying thread explaining time and again why that should be reverted? >>>> There's no end to this, and it is not a reasonable way to manage the >>>> project development. >>> >>> If people come out en masse and say they want the face menu back, we >>> should seriously consider it. >> How many are "en masse"? We have less than a dozen people claiming >> they want `..' back, that's hardly a "masse" in my book. > > I don't see anybody concur with your stance in this particular > discussion, and if you search the old one, I think it was mostly Paul > (?), and even he was really arguing toward something different, in a > different context as well (plain text files). > > Unlike some other questions, this is about the development process, > and the team of regulars is not so big. A dozen people seems like a > significant number for that purpose. I acknowledge that this ship seems to have sailed (though my personal preference would be a reconsideration of the choice, and it seems like several other regulars here want that as well) and I may not have a say in it now (the long discussion in 2015 predates my involvement in/around Emacs and emacs-devel), but if I may voice my opinion now that I /am/ around and somewhat active, I prefer `...' over '...'. It's a quoting style familiar from several other GNU projects I have been around and/or use -- e.g. M4, Guile, ... -- and to me it's always been a welcome uniqueness (if one may call it that) compared to the rest of the software world, and I enjoy seeing it in docstrings, comments, changelogs, and so on. I've used a large number of fonts over the years, and don't see what the supposed 'ugliness' of the ` is (as others have pointed out, it's already used by various markups like the popular Markdown, and doesn't seem to be problematic there). For pretty-printed documentation and manuals it's nice that =E2=80=98...=E2=80=99 unicode quotes are used for di= splay, but as mentioned they are not supported everywhere and are not as easy to type. I believe `...' is a nice ASCII dual of that, one which we've already been using in Emacs for years. I find that the opening and closing characters being different gives me a pleasant, visual cue about the start and end point of a quote. Sure, it may be different to what programmers are typically used to, but I don't think that makes it any less useful or would be justification enough to throw it out the window. In short, I really like this ASCII typographic `hack' and find it useful; and I like several of the points other folks -- like Phil -- have made in favour of not abandoning it. :) >>> Just like with any other change, especially those that are relatively >>> easy to undo. >> This one isn't, because we have been using it for many moons now. >> Some of it is practically impossible to undo, because it's in Git >> commit log messages. > > Again, look at this discussion: nobody is disputing the format of log > messages. > > Lars said we shouldn't care about it too much, but that's neither here > nor there. Yeah I don't think we'd need to 'undo' anything in the commit logs. Those are there to stay, but much could be done in etc/NEWS and elsewhere, and in future commit messages. Also, as folks mentioned, it's not like people have been exclusively using '...' in commit messages or plain text files, and `...' is still used quite frequently (and has been, historically), and I foresee that it will continue to be. Considering the long history of development of Emacs, I don't think it's at all too late to reverse this decision if we'd like to.