From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Moving packages out of core to ELPA Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2024 11:39:59 +0800 Message-ID: <874je6xwxc.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87h6i6y2ch.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="37989"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: emacs-devel To: JD Smith Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Feb 18 04:40:42 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rbY2j-0009mU-SH for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 04:40:41 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rbY2N-0004y4-7g; Sat, 17 Feb 2024 22:40:19 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rbY2K-0004xb-T4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Feb 2024 22:40:17 -0500 Original-Received: from sonic307-10.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.190.33]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rbY2I-0007y7-U9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Feb 2024 22:40:16 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1708227611; bh=qbdAiQ/fI3zOCLaxBnPf99b1NbB5To0lGEs9GPuQm7Q=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=OjBjqguS5v4gbDQ22GCzLYIk7qaSuK/RbjA+Ue8zzj0SdfTWCpmcohNcSmteWCa7VJDkXIefcsFiLl/567D8CMT4YDieZ1EbunlEsfNHfoeLDoaQNihN04YUTRdwMYaI8mWeAsnAGJ9nGndNB182kPpafF4XK02EnTqCBcoTgMvlmVttskm7wv19D2on5H5pUKNNbM5q/FlrPojQT/j6mPndEAlhsT4wOrdNmjImaYMpD/MIxXASjRnWG1bIJvwzKuS2+26x3W7XCFQdmiR0MjuHm5Ko8qnbRIY4kWWSJdhiPeY+2zSJfJzh5Yjoq2mOqlPxWRRI6SxY7Sf/pLQ+5Q== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1708227611; bh=HD4CocYuZKyC43cg9HxYqvPmBqEV2ma4bI9gc17SCGc=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=dW10lGiT+1rV1AfUdV0pK1RN3hkNMsD1n9JYZp7GKXhL9wcK2dW3zE75MI7fRWHehoZH6SuVMz4L/4fjAGbvrosCFcf/UZUzSOGn8tQMHZhzq7mi0mcsIStQFMSLTwpY4ABTYUEUzZABx41KCoojmhvgiLOQIDrHM4qD4fDKEJGhfSVpbh8WFtT2gUHRJ4YKAoKlxyuNNGBkQxuvwsizK+nBCpiDD+e/hd6lnV1VNfYmirzuIeiPXErzTxYl8gKzEp3eOPEvxHdJdqvmQ8drbAyx2QNROicbAPHJb+aP9D3NfCXSyeq7aK+8ujsBzO29x+X0MjDEMfFBM8XdazkgBA== X-YMail-OSG: um0LGjcVM1mBE_2HC90enlf1o5Fe0ozg9EVCtnIySd2THAU9aG_OMpkkoWsdunK 6oqiT_P15wllLsYyraSzldXZhepo_ly3XI0zpGvkR1SeoGKlCmyj8.aWkZKHek8rc7HimXGekOqh 3fK62BBkOGim8lcjOsENRparLDoORqDhgXaCTo0sGiE.Y9rm6XSXkN3iF0kRv_D710TX5TCxh1s0 nc3hgLzUxl7DAUgQ8wElaIhO80eblXEyiN97ScSWscWxhE6t.yo9aEOOBSeDQF6cYGk1V74ZPQqr BAu.rsLpNhf84Xg.ZlGJfdN9EUUR9ME6arv2HOgtku8derQ4A3vMJXDMOupZBK4lFnz0r0xu_QEG b9qHKgCISXZnoAOkwWnNGRipNb17HDVtIgpxqKgMIo96ydjHnNSxbKm2wZhojvb9OvsCFVQ8OOxo b_iiuIguR5IN6UKvkEiVRDkxw9Arws2SqL48hWNvDki8s8iQLwociLSuj0Y7gpwIRpz1Sj.TkvQt lGlWK8ftx6.T.yY1gzduNX_DGRWGd140wt3C14jSmCnZZX_vrjvKzUDBdjF_5Rhxb65znIn_5iYF 9O3hIiU2FqKXOVjHor9eaPgtZ3_GiWLpbKJX0uT04jeai1zi2eYJH3Q1t_KAsPBaArFXDJJX7XFj .Rd.o1Y9mO2Zp7xY5ryC9twDgT513K84PmJi8dpdSpma5BnC2dMfKNqUes4R_Ix_R1m1793iqWU3 .nigVZW6KjOaYBvL7Wt0m3DiW6.GKSdDIvM2mUTKl5Nf_TeGr3Fwl2tZtxbWSfqkARIUYpkHrJYs ROe4QnfECERmVF4XIjafxvKVE8zebzRmmW23by0qT1 X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: 88492de1-75b5-4fb0-838c-16828e400e16 Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic307.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 03:40:11 +0000 Original-Received: by hermes--production-sg3-6dc75bc8fb-khq9b (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 55d8d95b2f926b2b86fb4ee10fab0071; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 03:40:06 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: (JD Smith's message of "Sat, 17 Feb 2024 21:14:06 -0500") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.22077 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.190.33; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic307-10.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:316294 Archived-At: JD Smith writes: > That would imply that every instance of bringing a package into core > is not a mistake This is correct. > , which suggests superhuman forecasting and decision-making. Or a simple recognition of the principle that "more is better." > But even when including a package is beneficial, situations change > over time (>20 yrs, in this case). It seems only prudent to > reevaluate whether a given package still provides sufficient benefit > given the non-zero costs associated with it. Such costs are strictly zero, so long as the package has indeed fallen out of interest. The existence of maintainence work beyond the routine copyright bump at each turn of the year suggests that there's life in the old dog yet, and it would be vastly improper to declare it no longer worthy of the same. > Many which I mentioned in my initial message. The most salient: > > - Reduces maintenance burdens, freeing time for packages that have > more pressing issues. I have heard from emacs maintainers who have > spent significant time trying to understand and fix bugs in IDLWAVE > code that is likely unused (even by me). Emacs developers also spend time scrutinizing and suggesting changes to ELPA packages, which are reported through channels not unlike emacs-diffs. At any rate, there's nothing preventing its users from demonstrating that IDLwave maintenance can be safely discontinued or ignored--most of us would be more than glad to oblige. > - Removes "tripping hazards" for users who inadvertently activate the > mode for unrelated files and are confused (this is not hypothetical: > I've had numerous reports). Let's remove it from auto-mode-alist, then. > - Cuts down on "extra noise" in, e.g., the top level Info help. The IDLWAVE manual can be distributed separately, if that is important. > Is this really so, in practice? I have packages in ELPA which are > effectively untouched except by me, other than on first ingestion. > And they draw updates from a repo I maintain myself. Maybe I've > misconstrued the situation, but my understanding has been that core > packages receive far more attention from maintainers. And rightly so, > IMO: everyone has them installed, after all. > > Also, if ELPA and core are truly equivalent, I cannot then understand > the common strategy of "let it mature on ELPA for a few years, then > potentially migrate to core." I don't either. It's a counterproductive practice that only serves to give some of us the satisfaction of knowing that ELPA has made itself useful. > Because in ELPA, users must proactively opt-in to the use of the > package. For such users =E2=80=94 those who have actively sought it out = =E2=80=94 in > stark contrast to the vast majority of Emacs users, the benefits > dramatically outweigh the costs. The other side of this assertion is that users must opt-out of loading packages in core, and therefore that the entire lisp directory (bar obsolete) is loaded into every Emacs session at startup, which is clearly untrue.