From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Memnon Anon Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: d-s-m default: Nil + explanation! (was: d-s-m default) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 00:24:14 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <8739zps45s.fsf@mean.albasani.net> References: <87sk7pzqsp.fsf@ambire.localdomain> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1269477322 22723 80.91.229.12 (25 Mar 2010 00:35:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 00:35:22 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Mar 25 01:35:18 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nub2c-0004Ms-9J for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 01:35:18 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36129 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Nub2c-0001Fw-24 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 20:35:18 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Nub2V-0001Fk-V0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 20:35:12 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=40577 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Nub2T-0001FR-9x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 20:35:10 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nub2R-0000EU-T7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 20:35:08 -0400 Original-Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:36501) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nub2R-0000EJ-9j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 24 Mar 2010 20:35:07 -0400 Original-Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nub2O-0004Iu-72 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 01:35:04 +0100 Original-Received: from e178193111.adsl.alicedsl.de ([85.178.193.111]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 01:35:04 +0100 Original-Received: from gegendosenfleisch by e178193111.adsl.alicedsl.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2010 01:35:04 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 80 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: e178193111.adsl.alicedsl.de Cancel-Lock: sha1:njTOpWUzljlAXxmuQUu4Tyz9Dhg= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:122629 Archived-At: Hi, I wanted to give a small explanation, why I think Nil is the better default. I am fairly new to emacs (started mid 2008) and I was well aware that this would not be an easy task; but orgmode sounded so great. Since then, I find myself more and more influenced by this single program: Using emacs had a profound influence on how I perceive my computer, maybe only equaled by my switch from Dos 6 to Win95, i.e. "command line" style to fancy new "Everything is a GUI" concept. I think changing to D-S-M as a default is throwing dust into the eyes of the new users: Emacs is different. And without a minimal willingness to read the documentation, one will certainly fail. In fact, *imho* the fact that so many (new) users are complaining is an indication for a gap in the documentation. Probably, a new Info Node is needed, prominently placed and accessible from the splash screen, listing and explaining: a) Why a certain feature acts different to "common" practice in other programs, giving some rational why this feature is implemented and what is the advantage to a user. b) Showing an easy way (customize interface) how to change this "emacsy" behaviour to the usage pattern the user is accustumed to, in case he is not convinced or wants to start working with emacs and puts exploring this facette later. There is so much information out there on the web (and I spent a great deal of time to hunt 'em down), but a lot of (most?) resources don't give an explanation, why this is actually superior, why one would want to take the effort to retrain oneself. Example: Scrollbar on the left side. I turned the scrollbars of at once, so I never really realized the default is different to accustomed placement. But I would certainly have thought "This is *weird*! Do they have to do everything differently?" Is there anywhere in the info pages clearly stated that having the scrollbar on the left side might be unusual, but actually offers better ergonomic? [Mhhh, one sentence in a footnote.] But hey, "This is the emacs way!". Yes, but without a sound reason, no one (today) is going to retrain most of what he is used to without (at least) some reason. So, I think it is a good thing if a new user encounters unexpected behaviour: This makes him aware that there are different ways. *But*: There should be an (faq?) Info-Node especially destined to catch these cases, prominently placed on the splash screen! The user will know from the start: If something is odd, most probably, an answer and possibly a "fix" is where I can easily find it. When I started to leave orgmode and have a look at the outer "emacs" world, 23 was already on my machine, with t-m-m on by default. I had read about "using mark to navigate", but until today, whenever I set a mark, there was a region, so to me, setting the mark made only sense when I wanted to set and act on a region. Due to this thread (thanks David Kastrup!), I kept wondering: "Why would anyone be disturbed by t-m-m? Why navigate by mark?" and reread the old thread of 2008 and the info pages on mark: There is a *global* mark ring! *wow*! That feature would not have been very usefull for my earliest days, but now, with lots of open buffers, this sounds great! So, I will test using the mark more for the next days and use 'C-Spc C-Spc' whenever I will want to operate on the active region. I really do not think that "being different" is what makes new emacs users shy away. If they had a single entry point as described above that provide them a) the concept/idea of the default and b) an easy explanation how to change to "common practice", it does not matter, if 'd-s-m t' is default or not. btw: I am suscribed to emacs.devel, emacs.help, Planet Emacs and follow the Recent Changes of the emacswiki fairly recently, but I have never before this thread heard of d-s-m. Thats why I so strongly stress a prominent place. This explanation turned out not so small, after all ... Thanks for listening ;) Memnon