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From: Walter Alejandro Iglesias <eloi@roquesor.com>
To: emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2010 13:43:37 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <8739usq846.fsf@roquesor.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: AANLkTi=aSJVsYoF=2XajW2c3t1qzuZMGDfRkkkSFiM8E@mail.gmail.com

Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes:

> On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Barry Fishman <barry_fishman@acm.org> wrote:
>>
>> Since I started using Emacs I have seen many window systems come and
>> go.  What people call "Modern" window interfaces are just that, the
>> currently popular window system behavior soon to be replaced by
>> something else.
>
> Is not this rather one of the problems with free software? I think
> most users would like a stable window system standard interface in
> this regard.


The term "freedom" is a double-edged knife.  Young developers could
think "Why might I pay attention to what was done along the years?
Why might I pay attention to what others have done?".

Popular gnu/linux desktops and its applications are a good example.
Most of them seem trying to "replace" (and hide) the base system
instead of "complement" it.  Then final users think even the terminal
is halfway obsolescence.

They may think it is the better way to attract new users.  But, in the
long term, pathetically looking like a windows-macosx fake just get
the opposite.  Mostly if the graphical application returns a crash
popup window.

A clever new user takes in care the compatibility-universality of a
new interface (new for him) at time to decide if suffering or not its
"learning curve".

So gnu (not just desktop environments) are in a dilemma.  To keep
coherent with unix (gnu itself) base system tradition or with fashion
(what people understand for "modern system").


With the famous big graphical applications to edit images, videos, 3d
animations. etc (what people understand for "professional tools") the
user must learn hundred of submenus with crazy named obscure functions
(I know because my wife is a graphical designer).  The user "eats" all
this shit thinking to do a good investment.  But, more or late he/she
are fired of his/her job and in the new job he/she find he/herself in
front of other famous application that do the same, or the same app in
other system, or an update of the same app, but the stuff of functions
that take he/she month to learn, have a different name or are in other
place in the menu (i.e. take a look to the "exclusive windoze" 3DMax).






  parent reply	other threads:[~2010-08-06 11:43 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 313+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2010-07-09 19:12 Emacs learning curve Noah Lavine
2010-07-10  6:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-10 10:36   ` Tom
2010-07-10 11:17     ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-10 11:41       ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-10 15:07         ` Tom
2010-07-10 16:23           ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-10 16:39             ` Deniz Dogan
2010-07-10 16:44             ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-11  1:22               ` Sean Sieger
2010-07-11  8:33               ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-11 11:10                 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-12 16:54                   ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-12 17:08                     ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-12 17:45                       ` joakim
2010-07-12 17:59                         ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-13  6:41                         ` David Kastrup
2010-07-12 17:53                       ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-12 17:48                     ` Drew Adams
2010-07-12 18:05                       ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-10 17:57             ` Tom
2010-07-10 18:32               ` Bernardo Barros
2010-07-10 21:03               ` David Kastrup
2010-07-11  8:34                 ` Tom
2010-07-11 10:51                   ` Sebastian Rose
2010-07-11 16:05                     ` Juri Linkov
2010-07-11 16:55                       ` Miles Bader
2010-07-11 17:14                         ` Chong Yidong
2010-07-11 17:59                           ` David De La Harpe Golden
2010-07-11 18:01                             ` David De La Harpe Golden
2010-07-11 19:00                             ` Jan Djärv
2010-07-11 19:08                               ` David De La Harpe Golden
2010-07-11 22:49                             ` Chong Yidong
2010-07-12  7:25                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-12  9:00                                 ` David De La Harpe Golden
2010-07-12  9:30                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-12 20:56                                     ` David De La Harpe Golden
2010-07-11 18:00                           ` Drew Adams
2010-07-11 22:49                             ` Chong Yidong
2010-07-11 23:18                               ` Drew Adams
2010-07-11 18:05                           ` Sebastian Rose
2010-07-11 18:15                             ` Clipboard interactions [was: Re: Emacs learning curve] David De La Harpe Golden
2010-07-11 18:45                               ` David De La Harpe Golden
2010-07-11 23:14                         ` Clipboard interactions [was: " Juri Linkov
2010-07-12  9:00                           ` Clipboard interactions Miles Bader
2010-07-12 15:57                             ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-12 16:59                               ` Jan Djärv
2010-07-13  2:06                                 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-13  7:53                                   ` Jan Djärv
2010-07-13  8:41                                     ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-11 15:08                   ` Emacs learning curve Drew Adams
2010-08-04 20:54           ` Walter Alejandro Iglesias
2010-08-05 17:39             ` Barry Fishman
2010-08-06  2:48               ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-08-06  2:59               ` Lennart Borgman
2010-08-06  3:10                 ` Miles Bader
2010-08-06  5:18                 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-08-06 11:43                 ` Walter Alejandro Iglesias [this message]
2010-07-10 23:22         ` Juri Linkov
2010-07-11  1:00         ` Sean Sieger
2010-07-11  1:44           ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-11  2:14           ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-11  2:23             ` Sean Sieger
2010-07-11  2:47               ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-18 19:33         ` Giorgos Keramidas
2010-08-02  9:19       ` Stefan Monnier
2010-08-02 13:26         ` Juanma Barranquero
2010-08-02 14:57           ` Tassilo Horn
2010-08-02 15:00             ` Juanma Barranquero
2010-08-02 15:50             ` Lennart Borgman
2010-08-02 18:19               ` Tassilo Horn
2010-08-02 20:31             ` Stefan Monnier
2010-08-02 21:42               ` Johan Bockgård
2010-08-04 17:49                 ` Stefan Monnier
2010-08-02 14:16         ` Drew Adams
2010-08-02 15:07           ` Sean Sieger
2010-08-02 15:55           ` Lennart Borgman
2010-08-02 20:35           ` Stefan Monnier
2010-08-02 21:11             ` Drew Adams
2010-08-02 18:13         ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-08-02 18:37           ` Lennart Borgman
2010-08-02 19:10             ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-08-02 20:02               ` Lennart Borgman
2010-08-03  5:57                 ` David Kastrup
2010-08-02 18:39           ` Tom
2010-08-02 18:43             ` Lennart Borgman
2010-08-02 19:53               ` joakim
2010-08-03 22:07                 ` Eric M. Ludlam
2010-08-04  9:13                   ` David Kastrup
2010-08-04  9:42                     ` Alex Ott
2010-08-03  3:33           ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-08-03 18:45         ` Andy Wingo
2010-08-04 12:36           ` Stefan Monnier
2010-07-10 15:01   ` Noah Lavine
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2010-08-02 19:02 grischka
2010-07-15 15:05 grischka
2010-07-14 17:14 grischka
2010-07-14 18:05 ` Drew Adams
2010-07-15  8:33   ` Uday S Reddy
2010-07-15 13:49     ` Drew Adams
2010-07-16  1:31   ` Richard Stallman
2010-07-16  2:52     ` Miles Bader
2010-07-16  5:30     ` David Kastrup
2010-07-13  2:13 grischka
2010-07-13  5:58 ` Drew Adams
2010-07-12 19:18 grischka
2010-07-12 20:53 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-12 21:07   ` immanuel litzroth
2010-07-12 22:03   ` Drew Adams
2010-07-12 22:29     ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-12 23:22       ` Drew Adams
2010-07-12 23:53         ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-13  1:17           ` Drew Adams
2010-07-13  3:07             ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-13  5:59               ` Drew Adams
2010-07-14  8:18                 ` Tom
2010-07-14  9:38                   ` David Kastrup
2010-07-14 10:31                     ` Tom
2010-07-14 18:32                       ` David Kastrup
2010-07-15  8:22                       ` Miles Bader
2010-07-15  8:51                         ` Tom
2010-07-15  9:05                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-15  9:27                             ` Tom
2010-07-15  9:41                               ` David Kastrup
2010-07-15 10:09                                 ` Tom
2010-07-15 10:24                                   ` David Kastrup
2010-07-15 10:31                                     ` Tom
2010-07-15 15:05                                 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-15 15:15                                   ` David Kastrup
2010-07-15 15:39                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-16  4:35                                     ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-16  9:15                                     ` Uday S Reddy
2010-07-16  9:25                                       ` Miles Bader
2010-07-16 10:39                                       ` Tassilo Horn
2010-07-15 10:00                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-15 10:14                                 ` Tom
2010-07-15 10:25                                   ` David Kastrup
2010-07-15 10:34                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-16 16:56                           ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-16 17:12                             ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-16 17:27                               ` Tassilo Horn
2010-07-16 17:38                                 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-16 18:11                                   ` Teemu Likonen
2010-07-16 18:23                                     ` Tassilo Horn
2010-07-16 20:10                                       ` Teemu Likonen
2010-07-16 22:16                                         ` Miles Bader
2010-07-17  5:45                                           ` David Kastrup
2010-07-16 23:07                                         ` Sean Sieger
2010-07-17  6:02                                           ` Teemu Likonen
2010-07-17  6:29                                             ` Tassilo Horn
2010-07-17  7:21                                             ` David Kastrup
2010-07-17  7:43                                               ` Teemu Likonen
2010-07-17 12:15                                             ` Juri Linkov
2010-07-17 12:27                                               ` David Kastrup
2010-07-17 13:01                                                 ` John Yates
2010-07-17 16:15                                                 ` Juri Linkov
2010-07-17 12:50                                               ` Andreas Schwab
2010-07-17 16:11                                                 ` Juri Linkov
2010-07-19 19:39                                               ` Andy Wingo
2010-07-19 19:47                                                 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-17 14:28                                             ` Uday S Reddy
2010-07-17 15:56                                               ` Teemu Likonen
2010-07-18 13:00                                                 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-18 19:21                                                   ` Teemu Likonen
2010-07-20  1:56                                                     ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-20 23:25                                                       ` Kim F. Storm
2010-07-17  6:09                                         ` Tassilo Horn
2010-07-22 12:15                                           ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-22 13:16                                             ` Tassilo Horn
     [not found]                                               ` <770DFAD9-23D5-4BD3-A209-7E64FFC8999C@gmail.com>
     [not found]                                                 ` <201007230857.48161.tassilo@member.fsf.org>
2010-07-23 12:53                                                   ` Ivan Andrus
2010-07-16 18:15                                   ` Tassilo Horn
2010-07-16 18:59                                     ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-16 19:02                                       ` David Kastrup
2010-07-16 19:14                                         ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-16 18:16                                 ` Jan Djärv
2010-07-22 17:52                               ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-22 18:04                                 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-22 18:38                                   ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-22 18:40                                 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-22 22:29                           ` Stefan Monnier
2010-07-16  9:04                       ` Uday S Reddy
2010-07-16 19:05                       ` Ivan Kanis
2010-07-16 22:26                         ` Miles Bader
2010-07-17 17:08                           ` Ivan Kanis
2010-07-17 17:51                             ` Chong Yidong
2010-07-22 11:36                               ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-22 12:14                                 ` Tassilo Horn
2010-07-22 12:18                                   ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-22 13:03                                     ` Tassilo Horn
2010-07-22 18:01                                   ` Ivan Kanis
2010-07-22 19:45                                     ` David Kastrup
2010-07-22 19:56                                       ` Wojciech Meyer
2010-07-22 21:58                                         ` Stephen Eilert
2010-07-23  6:08                                           ` David Kastrup
2010-07-23  6:23                                             ` Fren Zeee
2010-07-23 18:23                                           ` Dirk-Jan C. Binnema
2010-07-23  7:28                                       ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-22 12:24                                 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-22 12:37                                   ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-22 14:20                                 ` Davis Herring
2010-07-22 15:59                                   ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-22 17:52                               ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-17 20:09                             ` Miles Bader
2010-07-17 11:15                         ` Dirk-Jan C. Binnema
2010-07-21 15:31                         ` Stefan Monnier
2010-07-21 15:48                           ` Sebastian Rose
2010-07-21 16:50                           ` David Kastrup
2010-07-22 17:52                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-22 18:40                           ` David Kastrup
2010-07-22 19:21                             ` David Kastrup
2010-07-22 19:27                               ` Wojciech Meyer
2010-07-25 12:33                                 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-25 14:22                                   ` Drew Adams
2010-07-25 14:59                                     ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-25 16:04                                       ` Drew Adams
2010-07-25 20:32                                     ` Fabian Ezequiel Gallina
2010-07-23 17:20                               ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-23 17:57                                 ` Miles Bader
2010-07-23 18:19                                   ` Drew Adams
2010-07-24  3:33                                   ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-24  4:51                                     ` Miles Bader
2010-07-24 11:52                                       ` Kim F. Storm
2010-07-24 14:09                                         ` Miles Bader
2010-07-25  2:07                                         ` David Robinow
2010-07-23 13:47                       ` Stefan Monnier
2010-07-23 14:41                         ` Tom
2010-07-23 16:02                           ` Drew Adams
2010-07-23 17:50                             ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-23 18:07                               ` Drew Adams
2010-07-23 20:28                                 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-23 22:21                                   ` Drew Adams
2010-07-23 23:46                                     ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-23 23:52                                       ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-24  1:16                                       ` Drew Adams
2010-07-24 14:30                                 ` Sean Sieger
2010-07-23 19:12                               ` Tom
2010-07-24  8:55                                 ` Leo
2010-07-24 13:48                                   ` joakim
2010-07-24 17:57                                   ` Wojciech Meyer
2010-07-23 18:25                             ` Juanma Barranquero
2010-07-23 18:50                               ` Drew Adams
2010-07-23 19:27                                 ` Juanma Barranquero
2010-07-24  6:38                                 ` Ivan Andrus
2010-07-23 17:46                           ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-14 12:13                 ` René Kyllingstad
2010-07-13  1:58           ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-13  3:25             ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-13  6:17               ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-13  6:34               ` Tom
2010-07-13  8:02                 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-13  8:32                   ` Tom
2010-07-13  9:03                     ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-13  9:20                       ` Tom
2010-07-13  9:19                     ` immanuel litzroth
2010-07-13 11:59                     ` Eric M. Ludlam
2010-07-13 12:07                       ` David Kastrup
2010-07-13 12:54                         ` joakim
2010-07-13 15:33                           ` David Kastrup
2010-07-13 15:49                             ` joakim
2010-07-13 18:02                               ` Alex Ott
2010-07-13 16:12                             ` David Engster
2010-07-13 16:26                               ` David Kastrup
2010-07-13 18:45                                 ` David Engster
2010-07-14  2:49                                   ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-14 11:43                                     ` Eric M. Ludlam
2010-07-14 13:06                                       ` David Engster
2010-07-13 17:12                               ` Chong Yidong
2010-07-13 22:09                                 ` Eric M. Ludlam
2010-07-13 12:19                       ` joakim
2010-07-13 12:41                       ` Tom
2010-07-13 20:08     ` Joe Brenner
2010-07-14 17:16       ` Richard Stallman
2010-07-13 21:01     ` Sean Sieger
2010-07-13 21:14       ` Drew Adams
2010-07-13 21:58         ` Sean Sieger
2010-07-14 10:41     ` Uday S Reddy
2010-07-14 14:03       ` Drew Adams
2010-07-14 18:36         ` David Kastrup
2010-07-12 23:28   ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-13  0:18     ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-13 16:54       ` Uday S Reddy
2010-07-13 23:27       ` Richard Stallman
2010-07-13  7:56   ` christian.lynbech
2010-07-13  8:10     ` David Kastrup
2010-07-13  8:44       ` joakim
2010-07-13  9:09       ` immanuel litzroth
2010-07-13 11:43       ` Eric M. Ludlam
2010-07-13 23:36     ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-13  9:23   ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-13 22:37     ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-14  0:24       ` Juanma Barranquero
2010-07-14  2:32       ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-14  7:19       ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-13  9:49   ` Miles Bader
2010-07-13 23:06     ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-13 13:51 ` Richard Stallman
2010-07-13 14:10   ` David Kastrup
2010-07-13 17:03     ` Uday S Reddy
2010-07-13 18:29   ` grischka
2010-07-14 17:16     ` Richard Stallman
2010-07-15 15:36       ` grischka
2010-07-29 20:46       ` Ted Zlatanov
2010-07-31 12:02         ` Sean Sieger
2010-07-31 13:32           ` martin rudalics
2010-07-31 13:44             ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-31 15:04               ` martin rudalics
2010-08-02 14:56           ` Ted Zlatanov
2010-08-02 15:43             ` Sean Sieger
2010-07-10 19:27 MON KEY
2010-07-11  2:16 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-11  3:39   ` MON KEY
2010-07-11 11:05     ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-08  7:44 Efforts to attract more users? joakim
2010-07-09  3:05 ` Richard Stallman
2010-07-09  7:33   ` Emacs learning curve (was Re: Efforts to attract more users?) christian.lynbech
2010-07-09  7:43     ` Emacs learning curve Masatake YAMATO

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