From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Lisp's future Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2014 20:41:27 +0200 Message-ID: <8738azafjc.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <54193A70.9020901@member.fsf.org> <87lhp5m99w.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87h9ztm5oa.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87d2ahm3nw.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <871tqneyvl.fsf@netris.org> <87d2a54t1m.fsf@yeeloong.lan> <83lhotme1e.fsf@gnu.org> <871tql17uw.fsf@yeeloong.lan> <838uktm9gw.fsf@gnu.org> <87h9zgarvp.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87mw97rjwm.fsf@yeeloong.lan> <874mvfc2h0.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <8738azspca.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1412707328 30956 80.91.229.3 (7 Oct 2014 18:42:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2014 18:42:08 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Richard Stallman , Andreas Schwab , dmantipov@yandex.ru, emacs-devel@gnu.org, handa@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, Mark H Weaver , Eli Zaretskii To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Oct 07 20:42:02 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XbZhx-0007pV-9b for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 07 Oct 2014 20:42:01 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60410 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XbZhw-0003B1-UO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 07 Oct 2014 14:42:00 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48663) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XbZha-00038f-04 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Oct 2014 14:41:39 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XbZhY-0006vX-UQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Oct 2014 14:41:37 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:47765) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XbZhY-0006vT-R6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Oct 2014 14:41:36 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54933 helo=lola) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XbZhQ-00009v-7P; Tue, 07 Oct 2014 14:41:28 -0400 Original-Received: by lola (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 75857DF341; Tue, 7 Oct 2014 20:41:27 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <8738azspca.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> (Stephen J. Turnbull's message of "Wed, 08 Oct 2014 03:32:21 +0900") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.4.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:175093 Archived-At: "Stephen J. Turnbull" writes: > David Kastrup writes: > > > Just bombing out in some predetermined manner in some fixed location is > > not a substitute for properly planned behavior. > > Nobody proposed that, so please stop arguing against it. > > > Unless told differently, a tool like GUILE or Emacs, when used as a > > filter, should do exactly _those_ filtering operations you tell it. > > Right. All Mark and I want is to default safely. Ie, if you invoke an > encoding named "utf-8", you get strictly conformant output. > > When Emacs is being used as a filter, you just have to use the > 'utf-8-with-rawbytes coding system, and when Emacs is being used for > what is presumably valid text, you use the 'utf-8 coding system. IOW, > it's use of the *-with-rawbytes coding systems that turns Emacs into a > filter. > > I think that is way preferable to the alternative where 'utf-8 gives > rawbytes, and you have to use 'utf-8-strict to get validation. Emacs' current behavior where the low-level operations _obey_ _without_ _asking_ is quite preferable. Again, you want to have the engine's responsibilities confused with the application's responsibilities. And that means that you generally have to work around the engine for getting basic work done. And figure out just where in the operating layers you have to apply overrides in order to get "don't mess with this" semantics. Since verification is best applied at a single place in an application, being denied control over that place whenever you don't have _every_ _single_ _layer_ under your own control is a nuisance. I am glad that Emacs does not get in my hair as an application programmer like that, and it would be doubly appropriate for GUILE not to do that. GUILE is supposed to be an extension language and system. As such, it should not try governing how an application is organizing its verification processes. -- David Kastrup