From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Artur Malabarba Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Option to not automatically customize-save-variable `package-selected-packages' Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 16:06:42 -0200 Message-ID: <8737sp51vx.fsf@gmail.com> References: <56C43D17.7010009@alice.it> <831t8aufoe.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1455818887 27943 80.91.229.3 (18 Feb 2016 18:08:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 18:08:07 +0000 (UTC) Cc: johnw@gnu.org, angelo.graziosi@alice.it, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Feb 18 19:08:00 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1aWSzf-0007kY-IU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2016 19:07:59 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44023 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aWSze-0005JB-Vz for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2016 13:07:59 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:50194) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aWSzO-0005Fq-Su for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2016 13:07:44 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aWSzL-0005pl-Ma for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2016 13:07:42 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-qk0-x236.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400d:c09::236]:34183) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aWSzL-0005pR-Hq; Thu, 18 Feb 2016 13:07:39 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-qk0-x236.google.com with SMTP id x1so21616749qkc.1; Thu, 18 Feb 2016 10:07:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=zPE4AV3Npl7NLqepAi5G/2XH2gY5b1EPNl3nkzYmYWw=; b=WXWpyH6lpyFJ2nTg9pL12ZY/ZBTe/L3JIhvFtDj7kOtSg7he2ZgRn8goE0f9ccoKNG 6KogoCMY29V70w063UJNuccnVydr4E+GD8YFeUfCIw0pVZsigXa/aoAcGY50pV22/9H7 1EsmwJRFTstSo/TU2iTOCfkr8KYDht1PZOftGq35TN/no+Gi/XwhziI4QAjR42WeVIac R8SSvD8lhf8H63UpSqm0NkQ5b6I9oifxPdAq/vR6H23hyVYEfYS12xWT0CtazimhFAdP 7vAi891th0icZ5I0eQaxU85erlVO7ESayZMdtyAjsXY1XdIhcGIVVBLalXRJnCh+7oii Ms9g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:date :in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=zPE4AV3Npl7NLqepAi5G/2XH2gY5b1EPNl3nkzYmYWw=; b=dwgrl68f1GGVJGlET+ixZb+TWK9BSL5xTnVZmqpqa61v5ww3ChKAcQdI8zkYcto1oj TvHcu2QYjZe2SuQOSHvvN1cKkc5fbd8o7eVwTpcH+v8lboBaLgu1J51mdniQjEhedxaf J0+RRgk3tpIS4jpetjvkteg09R/FbfFMrFufLEJ9H7a2gpa/3yc0EOGSiP9DHq3dovHt +CEedFTh8Vkrq2UZ/NDJsdl6XquPHOAYrHONZWQtkFKhKIhRxNOlIQES/4v98Kz8IVHu c4NFr/ai/jY8KJ9ZbIrr9tLxqkSaIEOErVC74ZiV90QlWrTB/kTkmkdCS/2kYCXLOzQe c3Sw== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YORsAEFne8e5Ae9dbSFS5pwjEXbQ0eGiBNmguUCxS3LaG9SRxLN5N3Cbf+/K3bxUgA== X-Received: by 10.55.76.11 with SMTP id z11mr10374838qka.83.1455818858869; Thu, 18 Feb 2016 10:07:38 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from Gandalf-Linux.gmail.com ([179.184.224.5]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d60sm17800513qga.46.2016.02.18.10.07.36 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 18 Feb 2016 10:07:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <831t8aufoe.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 18 Feb 2016 18:49:37 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.91 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400d:c09::236 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:200140 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: > I don't see why this should block the release. It's a very old and > established behavior. It's okay to discuss changing it, but blocking > the release due to it certainly doesn't sound TRT to me. It's not yet part of a stable release, so if this variable is going to cease being a custom-variable I'd like to decide that before release. OTOH, implementing this as a separate file is prone to introduce bugs, so I guess it would be a bad idea to introduce such functionality so close to release. >> > Perhaps the experts in this area have better reasons than we've >> > heard so far. >> >> IIRC, the discussions for this feature included me, Stefan, and Thierry Volpiatto (amongst other people). > > Can you point to those discussions? If you mean this one: > > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-01/msg00756.html That link looks right. > then after reading it, I'm none the wiser: I don't see the issue with > saving customizations in a separate file raised there. It wasn't. I just mentioned who participated in the discussion of the feature as a whole, I never said we weighted the pros and cons of using custom-save-variable for the persistency. > This seems to be a general complaint about package.el using Custom to > save the data about installed packages. I see no arguments as to why > it's wrong to use Custom for that. My reason is that Custom is bad for saving data that gets changed programatically (not just by the user). > After all, Custom is our standard way of saving customizations, The problem is that this is not strictly a customization. The list of manually installed packages is more akin to the list of abbrevs, or to `desktop-save-mode's data. That is, it is data that gets programmatically changed by lisp code, without the user's knowledge. Just like the abbrev and the desktop data are saved to their own files, I think the list of selected packages should too.