From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ihor Radchenko Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: longtime user of emacs (was: "Why is emacs so square?") Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 13:14:18 +0800 Message-ID: <87365uel05.fsf@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="27308"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Jeff Norden , "andres.ramirez" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Jul 14 07:15:25 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jvDHn-0006yL-Pi for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 07:15:23 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56792 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jvDHm-0005lA-Ng for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 01:15:22 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47194) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jvDHE-0005K0-Gd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 01:14:48 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pl1-x62e.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::62e]:46891) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jvDHC-0008Nn-S6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Jul 2020 01:14:48 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pl1-x62e.google.com with SMTP id k5so6516613plk.13 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 22:14:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :mime-version; bh=9jVuQFPQ4HQgyAjA5IJ9cMpXA/rQ9/8e7e9WUsE88UE=; b=JyPKaTdYoxVfSB0HTxKBrLgbilP7vVTmHSO5Yk6uHzRQctryLEgc2JBN0wzVMmngeQ 3JpEUJgO9q+r3rNtwZjfbSnNWcHHN1/dMbu43WJQwQ1eG6seb1I6hu0aNzcwyfRpvkLZ vIcswgvjBeu/vP7QnH4N/vn31GFf44BtuZ8wTwY+ANTSerfO1UChtEBf36eLWsoVuLEu 7gMjxVzTijp0PEahn/mzotueGXwGMydVvGQO0fEk618TorME/fddaDhd4wEkpoiJqNJO 3/zM9xk6YiA0dI5hNpv17FI1zWQjXHvgrc0FM7EjvqHkd6pw8eG8GiL0+pf441AIwuuk xogQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:mime-version; bh=9jVuQFPQ4HQgyAjA5IJ9cMpXA/rQ9/8e7e9WUsE88UE=; b=TUeR3DIHNBl2N36YZKx+7MQ2FEjNeZUd26OWHXzHeFs+nzf7bx/0WgbVC58dZVQnYF WTQ5oI4VxxaHH2F9EWO8G43XKqzre0ung1DmL4p7idCI8ARSMZmRtLPyQ1dcf/FckPz7 TIO17DTDIMbKYvvulxLEmv8X80yQdmlozdZ3Cj9xzH92kjG6j1yZRcS4K3DVSvUnuNmO SxKtcrn0R3/eoZK5OgoOVinLhsE1DhTHVfUhZlH9HJ+6uHnD5MzJTbKuc1XTBN8INOXl 6mxWrpfgwoJowFCaxbw+iy65yZ067kAuhROMfIrE8Y/jsF6bzpUUbpYPwcLq2YHFfcKm 9jOQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Vw1Stcip6bmFOmxyhvEL5LNEOFRqjKqkEhQpgmfFib3VJaFfU e4lEYW3RgvQ2HnlciEGbQJY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyd+tJFv3m82RKu/S52HAb1xbulYSoxlZttjy/Ksia7jWy7Kb2LYd+M921iUrVV99ovCfFw/A== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:222d:: with SMTP id c42mr2956965pje.126.1594703684855; Mon, 13 Jul 2020 22:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost ([104.250.131.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b21sm15932127pfp.172.2020.07.13.22.14.43 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 13 Jul 2020 22:14:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::62e; envelope-from=yantar92@gmail.com; helo=mail-pl1-x62e.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:252941 Archived-At: > I agree with Po Lu that the defaults are reasonable and should certainly > not be changed lightly. I'll go further and say that, since emacs is > designed at its core to be customizable and extensible, the "vanilla > defaults" are far less critical than they would otherwise be. Everyone > has their own preferences. But it's easy to change any that differ from > the defaults. If I'm using a "vanilla" emacs, I usually change scroll-step > (or -conservatively), but this just takes a moment. And, if I can't > recall the variable name, I just do M-x set-variable scroll- [TAB], and > there they are. While I agree that the existing Emacs defaults are reasonable in general, I do not think that they are good for users coming from an arbitrary background. Emacs is a very versatile tool and can be used for programming, creative writing, research, note-taking, todo management, and many more different fields. I do not think that a single set of defaults can satisfy users aiming for every single use-case. Moreover, changes required to tweak Emacs towards a specific use-case are often much more than "just takes a moment". No surprise that we have a whole spectrum of Emacs startup kits, which offer predefined set of tweaks for different styles of using Emacs. I do think that the existing Emacs defaults are a good starting point for a new user with unknown workflows. They are generic enough to tweak Emacs in any possible direction. However, I believe that it would be a good option to have several sets of defaults, which would better fit some common use-cases, like programming, note-taking, tramp, git, etc. Then, the existing defaults will represent "Generic" use-case, but a new user (who may or may not have programming background) might easily select other set of defaults, which is more suitable for the user's background and expected use-cases. Best, Ihor Jeff Norden writes: >> Do You think vanilla emacs has good defaults? If your answer to the >> previous question is "No". What would You change on vanilla emacs >> defaults? > > I agree with Po Lu that the defaults are reasonable and should certainly > not be changed lightly. I'll go further and say that, since emacs is > designed at its core to be customizable and extensible, the "vanilla > defaults" are far less critical than they would otherwise be. Everyone > has their own preferences. But it's easy to change any that differ from > the defaults. If I'm using a "vanilla" emacs, I usually change scroll-step > (or -conservatively), but this just takes a moment. And, if I can't > recall the variable name, I just do M-x set-variable scroll- [TAB], and > there they are. > > So, I probably wouldn't argue for having the keyboard-quit-strong that I > posted above become a replacement for keyboard-quit. Instead, if folks > think it is a worthwhile idea, maybe a customizable variable could > control the default behavior of C-g. Then it just becomes the > relatively minor question of what the default value should be for this > variable. > > -Jeff > -- Ihor Radchenko, PhD, Center for Advancing Materials Performance from the Nanoscale (CAMP-nano) State Key Laboratory for Mechanical Behavior of Materials, Xi'an Jiaotong University, Xi'an, China Email: yantar92@gmail.com, ihor_radchenko@alumni.sutd.edu.sg