From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ihor Radchenko Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Interactive guide for new users Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 12:34:22 +0800 Message-ID: <87363mcn1t.fsf@localhost> References: <875z8ortot.fsf@gkayaalp.com>> > <83lfhjkq0r.fsf@gnu.org>> <8620B5CD-CA92-46BF-80A8-DBE7052F4CA6@gmail.com>> > > <83d02re2uk.fsf@gnu.org>> <26ff0a05-bd18-4108-bf6a-85e3bf5937af@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="35276"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: casouri@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Drew Adams , Eli Zaretskii , Gregory Heytings Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 13 06:36:29 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kHJkb-00096x-Qo for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 06:36:29 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45172 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kHJka-0006uH-QL for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 00:36:28 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52554) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kHJjb-0006L3-Hf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 00:35:28 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pj1-x1034.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::1034]:35917) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kHJjZ-0003nS-TL; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 00:35:27 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pj1-x1034.google.com with SMTP id b17so3637438pji.1; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 21:35:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :mime-version; bh=C7bmBApKd8LTZKFKuPAJNWVA4gtslgd9Bik272mYbGM=; b=Vo0NdHcms49Lmvwre9r5/xaTtLU6S0aptwNVIMevYvHfbsro9aV+V7DjtpV0Ja/97o EVPQ7hcu896v4taFEOnl9+IHX9v/LnE71MvlOjgToL0nahA4f9Pn0MVkEIq3n1ZibDN6 qUDWiN9Gr4xc8rHan/LeWGpBBquxWCZ19e1UfUeP+zO/8VzGWzK/t7Q1k+kBwvMPWDNr O0/NVFicWCLWn4bJUOGeHr+PcYpQ/2JPamBofZpOOXyVVDzN0NzhNaV9gwzAVfD5MkwO cEg2zHl8Fd9AnkllmSZGsmeItDPdecaG/Q+559aLJDn6hDoKTIxPpTImuILJeYhBjZ8R gWXg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:mime-version; bh=C7bmBApKd8LTZKFKuPAJNWVA4gtslgd9Bik272mYbGM=; b=g/dGl+v+WLQznp+IoSr74kcpEL8iaG7Ag0WHlCS3w48gYddexJ64SukRgoH9OkdKfP CgN335Z8at5m+SGy2aogQabTQwRqAFR24NiPc1Si7jZSG9vrvXnp30ShRlKTCFe77Ex0 hLiD4PNk8qU0pYX/4uNjbJiTDtsEnyu2gxiswOPgFQBFh71ks2a4IwI4a3aafejQF3Yd 9ElypPZgMOnZk8I3YRlWv09IFynsX7e3j1YfsgCg8DefE0h6lKnc4hEbvl5BrYK97JyI oG4UAEAJ+5bs4nSaNLvpOAcncwWU+hM5awn7znskFYCFVJq77Hk+cYxEE0Udk7X3RJ/1 m+dQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5310sanfQFVoT1A6S9zaKL4dUMcrPeFwAvyB49ejWXJ66usZuLud OtEujUojmaospiwUIELl7wM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy+QzygLPJ3yV2BRa0z74fM2dV2o9MXN4SFYlgJBJ+D0ntVCsETQYBhs/8gSZeXR+m5ypsa/w== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:d596:: with SMTP id v22mr8915582pju.146.1599971724153; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 21:35:24 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost ([104.250.131.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d6sm5486511pjw.0.2020.09.12.21.35.22 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 12 Sep 2020 21:35:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <26ff0a05-bd18-4108-bf6a-85e3bf5937af@default> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::1034; envelope-from=yantar92@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x1034.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255434 Archived-At: > But again, that's not an opinion that we should > remove it by default. I'm just questioning the > declaration that it's already (newly) established > that it should be shown by default. For example, toolbar is used to help new users with interactive isearch. It shows next/previous match buttons to help users, who don't know about C-s/C-r. Moreover, it also provides buttons to show docstring and provides tooltips about key bindings in isearch-mode-map. Best, Ihor Drew Adams writes: >> > 2. disable tool-bar-mode >> >> We have just established that [the tool bar] >> is important for newbies. > > Without expressing a preference for the default > behavior here, let me ask whether it's true that > we've established that tool-bar on is important > for newbies. > > Menu-bar, yes. Or a hamburger-menu or whatever. > But tool-bar? Have we really "established" that? > > A menu-bar is quite helpful for discovery, which > is important. We want users to discover features > and key bindings. A tool-bar isn't so useful for > discovery, I think. > > But again, that's not an opinion that we should > remove it by default. I'm just questioning the > declaration that it's already (newly) established > that it should be shown by default.