From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Gitlab Migration Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 17:34:26 +1000 Message-ID: <8735qvwcqt.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87h7fcnmq0.fsf@posteo.net> <87o89kw0hl.fsf@gnus.org> <0c369b25-aedd-1fdf-4813-503f27e42c7c@yandex.ru> <874kbbznwv.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12616"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.6.5; emacs 27.2.50 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Daniel Fleischer Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Aug 27 09:48:33 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mJWbJ-00037z-NZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 09:48:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42794 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mJWbI-0000JA-JO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 03:48:32 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:57636) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mJWa2-00077m-Md for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 03:47:14 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pf1-x436.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::436]:39673) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mJWa1-0004RJ-1Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 03:47:14 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pf1-x436.google.com with SMTP id e16so4573287pfc.6 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 00:47:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version; bh=r8JKtqIOWpRqFv5HvQxnRkYKyv3gas5S3e/w88yoi5Y=; b=SsNdljmUtoXHlstUZiWf2+7Jqq+zvhy4UBS+hxKy9rMTd+Udz4fNudzpu7Dq5LSFlT BOpJBhBy9G+Whsl2HW1D1h62bHOeTEfyeDWnKondyELMdjdGsh9vylX4ZQXQ8ib1fzGR iwIppSkV52cb+VIACotiKm1slf031+R9y3ldYe3xw1D47FbFG2Kr8A3HMYbxIm7B7Kzb FbFrj7+Zl7B+nNhHpXGFmmOI2NA832LcCiiJpd8Cfw827fTGSfCuNqFGR+mMMxV1v4vX /KirKIOOBy1BmISAguKBGOQdQ2GNlYnsm1I4FwogmtZkittSv+XH3XQuTVs7pj+f4KpP dvEA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version; bh=r8JKtqIOWpRqFv5HvQxnRkYKyv3gas5S3e/w88yoi5Y=; b=KnT17gKyGhp+1qlkiVQsrP0kzJbZBoN0l5miOWRR3ckDk4aV76R2AIkghnkx1Ugt5Z fjhgtJNwIrmaD72l1PbOydoaVyHq9YA07ddO9a1+h4yC18jl1+Qm7lFIgMdVBxuZfa/c Xpl7SkPJ/7abcvpFXtn1Y3W3XH55162TGQsgnh67QrTQp0WhRsLb7p7Imh+hoVWzGKJm RE7o4OyKz+252ixagLSyki5NDe3yezikehhIoepmWUhZffdkSOGUZW32kZYOcwEqHYaq dRygaN5XBlyLQFVPEfAflMoTEmbldGiDyuGvHnVaDTz2rpeyxuvOJ4oZLQbai1pgoRXK yWpg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531rTO2G4O3UQ6x2Vq0yHtfdFT93nJWRX0L3CFfh5SEVsiVmZQJ7 tLboS7aQJNG+fGRYsQwJtUvrT7aOHGo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxIVgnhHW0UrTy/gI06LXRe813UX0AREknF+xJQj1ioMt4Kk5aEh9VMGgiTOZUNGD4cFV8Ltg== X-Received: by 2002:a63:4e45:: with SMTP id o5mr6897281pgl.191.1630050431164; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 00:47:11 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from tim-desktop (106-69-92-233.dyn.iinet.net.au. [106.69.92.233]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p10sm5587361pjv.39.2021.08.27.00.47.09 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 27 Aug 2021 00:47:10 -0700 (PDT) In-reply-to: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::436; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pf1-x436.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:273131 Archived-At: Daniel Fleischer writes: > Tim Cross [2021-08-27 Fri 11:01] *wrote*: > >> I'm not sure this is true. I think virtually all developers are forced >> to suffer email, but a gorwing number don't use it. Often, all the >> discussions, notifications, comments etc are actually consumed via a >> mobile 'app'. For these users, logging into their inbox is frustrating >> and inconvenient because their inbox is full of pointless and old >> messages/notifications/alerts they have already seen/received via other >> channels. For these users, the primary reason they have an email address >> is to have something to put into the 'login' box for web services they >> use. Telling these users to use email to submit a patch is very similar >> to me being told when I started using email that I had to send in a hard >> copy via snail mail. > > It's a very intersting point about what email represent to different > people that arising from this discussion. I'm half your age and use > email for 2 reasons: > > 1. It's an identify for today's web. As such, it's becoming the main > tool for tracking (especially as cookies phase out), so I use > multiple boxes and regard them is disposable and spam-infected. > > 2. Receiving official documents from institutions. > > I don't talk to family, friends or coworkers via mail. Personally, I > think it's old, not secure or private by default, very inconsistent > (HTML rendering is arbitrary vs. text, multiple MUA) and just can't > imagine using it as a software engineering tool. > Yep, that mirrors what I'm seeing as well. Many younger users really use it primarily to provide a unique identifier (login) and for when they have to deal with institutions that don't provide other alternatives. The other interesting trend I'm seeing is with many companies now working to minimise email as part of their internal/external workflows. Many companies are finding it a huge resource sink, cause of unnecessary stress/pressure on staff, source of significant security concerns and a real problem for records management. >From the Emacs project perspective, providing alternative web based workflows similar to what github/gitlab/sourceHut provide would be beneficial. The challenge seems to be in finding software which meets FSF requirements. In particular, a solution which is mature enough and is not based on non-free Javascript libraries.