From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Philip Kaludercic Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Objed maintenance Date: Fri, 03 May 2024 06:51:20 +0000 Message-ID: <8734qz8k2f.fsf@posteo.net> References: <85ttjyp9xh.fsf@gmail.com> <87cyqhvp3k.fsf@posteo.net> <87v843qfvf.fsf@posteo.net> <87v843owbj.fsf@posteo.net> <87ttjhpfue.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="29827"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: clemera@posteo.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Amy Grinn Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri May 03 08:52:31 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1s2mmV-0007Vu-NF for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 03 May 2024 08:52:31 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1s2mlV-0003rO-T8; Fri, 03 May 2024 02:51:29 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1s2mlU-0003lA-M0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 May 2024 02:51:28 -0400 Original-Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1s2mlR-0004WT-JC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 May 2024 02:51:28 -0400 Original-Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9EF30240105 for ; Fri, 3 May 2024 08:51:21 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1714719081; bh=rwaqNWw0QDxHoMFzsSLygHtLuSvChopEoQb4DvfNhDM=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:OpenPGP:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type:From; b=VZPL/cBnmx9A2bEbyTNM1bf562hhLbjhpTJi3veoTSST82h6cy6lXzQXZaDKVl9VB plNkf7lv/utfTHBrPUvf56vtExCPZ6uGVRpqrAo8hrf7xhR13BQRHHcVTRurBNvnd5 iqNOFDv/AqRMWoHGDDnmxpipBuDxmWv1N/9nARMKRXbTSG1KqFyepW0pCoiOBNclmp kGFk8WIg6rvLePSTFu8U9z4LjXV2OMEjBbcNjLsvM7k/lrXOAciW0uj4RT1L9x9mLu pFGYNw8+IOT785CsofFl78WtMxSUkgYS6GaBJrXMboYowtcMweZklpQrYXQ+CU20nf CHJ8tkrdyq8bw== Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4VW1fx13B7z6tm8; Fri, 3 May 2024 08:51:21 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: (Amy Grinn's message of "Thu, 02 May 2024 09:13:01 -0400") OpenPGP: id=7126E1DE2F0CE35C770BED01F2C3CC513DB89F66; url="https://keys.openpgp.org/vks/v1/by-fingerprint/7126E1DE2F0CE35C770BED01F2C3CC513DB89F66"; preference=signencrypt Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.66; envelope-from=philipk@posteo.net; helo=mout02.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:318640 Archived-At: Amy Grinn writes: > Philip Kaludercic writes: > >> Amy Grinn writes: >> >>> Philip Kaludercic writes: >>> >>>> Amy Grinn writes: >>>> >>>>> Philip Kaludercic writes: >>>>> >>>>>> Amy Grinn writes: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Philip, I am using an unpublished dependency called key-game, >>>>>>> which I wrote, which I thought might be useful for other modal >>>>>>> editing packages, or for large packages like gnus. Anyways I >>>>>>> will try to submit that package for publishing on GNU ELPA before >>>>>>> objed is updated. >>>>>> >>>>>> That sounds good, just inferring from the name it sounds like >>>>>> wizard or training program? Is this going to be a hard dependency >>>>>> or a weak one? >>>>> >>>>> Yes, it's a utility package to help create key-based or >>>>> command-based tutorial games. It's not a user-facing package, >>>>> similar to boxy; I wouldn't want users to have to install it >>>>> explicitly. To answer a potential followup, I also wouldn't want >>>>> to split up the objed tutorial game into a separate package. That >>>>> would hinder discoverability and make the installation of objed >>>>> more complex. All that to say I believe key-game will be a hard >>>>> dependency. >>>> >>>> That is a pity. I try to advocate for minimising dependencies, >>>> especially if these aren't required for the core functionality of a >>>> package. I don't know how your package is designed, but couldn't >>>> you have a command like M-x objed-tutorial that reports an error if >>>> the package is not installed (or proposes to install it)? FWIW I >>>> don't think having a separate package is a good idea either -- too >>>> much noise in the package list. >>> >>> Practically, the entrypoint for the objed tutorial game is a key-game >>> macro call, so it would be difficult to rewire. Moreover, this would >>> cause a similar issue in all other packages which might use key-game. >>> This implies much more boilerplate which must be maintained >>> separately in all those packages. >>> >>> I see your point that the tutorial is not *the* core feature of >>> objed, but in my opinion it is *a* core part, and one that is more >>> likely to be invoked by new users. I don't want to put up roadblocks >>> for them. I think peer dependencies can be useful for extending a >>> package, and objed already has such a dependency with avy, but this >>> seems like an unnecessary installation step instead. >>> >>> I'm not as experienced with ELPA, so I would like to know more about >>> the thought process behind discouraging direct dependencies. But >>> again, I don't think key-game has any intrinsic features which an end >>> user may want separate and apart from its use in other packages, and >>> I would find it odd to suggest users add it to their selected >>> packages. >> >> Abstractly: My advice is my advice, it is inherently biased. I take >> that position, because of my experience, which is why I refuse to >> install packages with more than 1-~2 transitive dependencies (I was >> recently once again shocked by "ement"). As everything I say that >> isn't part of the ELPA rules, you can ignore it if you think you know >> better. My motivation to help with ELPA is rooted in my own interest >> to have good packages, given my own understanding of what makes >> packages good. >> >> Concretely: I don't know how key-game looks like, so I cannot really >> say if it makes sense or not. I had something in mind like a generic >> wizard framework, where you'd M-x key-game, then get prompted what >> game to play (as defined by whatever package provides a game) and then >> it would play that game. > > That's an interesting idea, kind of like man pages except for tutorial > games. Centralizing the entrypoint for all key games is not exactly the > direction I took though, in the current implementation each package is > responsible for creating a separate entrypoint. Right, I recall there was a discussion on creating a configuration wizard a few years back, and I'd imagine that it might look something like that as well. > I'll have to give it some more thought but I have a few concerns > already. It probably doesn't address the boilerplate code issue I > brought up but more importantly it seems like a dual dependency: > objed-game requires key-game for its implementation and key-game > requires objed-game to register itself as a valid game. If only one of > the packages is loaded it would necessarily load the other I think? > Currently, the command objed-game resides in a separate file which is > autoloaded (along with key-game) IFF a user invokes it. Why not just wrap it in a with-eval-after-load inside of objed-game? I am not familiar with the boiler-plate code (have you sent me the code and did I just miss it?) but if your input is just data, then you could add it to a list that key-game queries. > When you have the time, I would like to know if you have a specific > autoload/dependency scheme in mind and if there are any similar packages > already in ELPA which act as a centralized interface for interacting > with other packages. Perhaps the built-in VC package? My autocrypt package is also built up in a way that would support this kind of usage, but these tackle different issues. -- Philip Kaludercic on peregrine